# Is the superhero genre science fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793 "2014-06-14T21:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/61 "2014-06-19T14:08:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Lord of the Rings is not in any way children’s literature. Harry Potter is. And the way Harry is told is much closer to all other children’s lit stories than it is to the classic fantasy tradition. I think we’ve entered a “agree to disagree” zone. My take, put succinctly, is that children’s literature isn’t a genre - it’s an audience. HP and LOTR are equally valid entries in the fantasy genre, but target different audiences. That’s no different to me than fantasy targeting teen girls or middle-class housewives dreaming of wearing tramp stamp tattoos and dating werewolves and vampires. And I can’t say I agree that comics were targeted towards kids. Recall that the early history had a pretty big fracas where people said they weren’t appropriate for kids; the entire industry had target failure? They were written for a broader audience and kids latched onto it. Pretty much the case with all genre fiction. I read a lot of mysteries and science fiction as a kid - damned little was written for me. In fact, I’d have never read Encyclopedia Brown if he didn’t share a surname. > [@](#): > > That brings up a question I dodged earlier, when Little Nemo asked if I thought that Stan Lee did for comics what John W. Campbell did for science fiction. I don’t have a glib answer for that. There are parallels, certainly. As I argue above, I think comics always sought an audience beyond kids. What Stan Lee did was change the template everyone was using, sometimes caused the Patriarch Ideal - rich white professionals helping the common man in a sort of timeless universe that reset every month. Lee still had plenty of those guys (Tony, Reed, Matt, etc) but he broadened the scope of protagonists in age and social group, and gave them the problems of the common man to help the audience identify with them. That never really worked for me, btw. The Patriarch’s were life’s lottery winners - who wants to see them grouse about rich people problems? Marvel made it worse, by making them incompetent neurotics who’d won life’s lottery in a different way (super powers). Marvel’s real contribution to maturing the genre was the ongoing storyline, which came later. It was pretty much VOTM (villain of the month) stories with maybe a two-parter before then. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/62 "2014-06-19T14:24:33Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Lee still had plenty of those guys (Tony, Reed, Matt, etc.) Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Matt… Helm? 😃 > [@epbrown01](#): > > The Patriarch’s were life’s lottery winners - who wants to see them grouse about rich people problems? Well, if you feel that superheroes are a power fantasy, than it makes sense to have some rich ones. Being so rich that you can afford to buy entire skyscrapers is another valid fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/63 "2014-06-19T15:00:11Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Well, if you feel that superheroes are a power fantasy, than it makes sense to have some rich ones. Being so rich that you can afford to buy entire skyscrapers is another valid fantasy. I don’t know if we are dealing with a “feeling” here, it seems more of a “thought” to me, and a good one. The origin of superheroes was DEFINITELY a power fantasy … just look at the name. Teenage boys being forced to behave as children when their hormones are exploding and their bodies are getting bigger and more muscular and their minds are becoming more capable, would OF COURSE dream of becoming mega-strong, mega-smart, invincible heroes who would astound EVERYONE with their powers. Maybe power fantasy is hitting the nail on the head, as far as a term describing the genre goes. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/64 "2014-06-19T15:44:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t know if we are dealing with a “feeling” here, it seems more of a “thought” to me, and a good one. The origin of superheroes was DEFINITELY a power fantasy … just look at the name. Teenage boys being forced to behave as children when their hormones are exploding and their bodies are getting bigger and more muscular and their minds are becoming more capable, would OF COURSE dream of becoming mega-strong, mega-smart, invincible heroes who would astound EVERYONE with their powers. Maybe power fantasy is hitting the nail on the head, as far as a term describing the genre goes. I wasn’t disagreeing with superhero comics being a power fantasy. I don’t disagree with your post. I was only disagreeing that being wealthy shouldn’t be a part of that. I agree “feel” wasn’t the right word for me to use. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/65 "2014-06-19T15:51:04Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > I think we’ve entered a “agree to disagree” zone. My take, put succinctly, is that children’s literature isn’t a genre - it’s an audience. HP and LOTR are equally valid entries in the fantasy genre, but target different audiences. That’s no different to me than fantasy targeting teen girls or middle-class housewives dreaming of wearing tramp stamp tattoos and dating werewolves and vampires. They target different audiences because one is written as a children’s book and the other is written for adults. Young adults have been reading adult books for a very long time, but children seldom do. Harry has a huge child entry audience, LotR has a huge teenage entry audience. And for good reason. > [@](#): > > And I can’t say I agree that comics were targeted towards kids. Recall that the early history had a pretty big fracas where people said they weren’t appropriate for kids; the entire industry had target failure? They were written for a broader audience and kids latched onto it. I don’t recall, because the early 50s fracas was a long time away from “early.” Most historians put the first comic book as 1933’s _Famous Funnies_. Superheroes came later and co-existed with animal comics throughout the 40s. The attempt by EC (and its imitators) to appeal to a more adult audience was made because sales of kids’ comics had dropped after the war. It’s true that comics were popular with GIs during the war and retaining or wining back that audience was part of the plan - lots and lots of war comics were produced - but for all their attention the “adult” comics were never a major sales factor overall. Kiddie fare of all types crashed them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/66 "2014-06-19T23:26:21Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I wasn’t disagreeing with superhero comics being a power fantasy. I don’t disagree with your post. I was only disagreeing that being wealthy shouldn’t be a part of that. . . . This is something a lot of us have come to figure out from doing superhero role-playing-gaming. (Champions, DC Heroes, Marvel Role Playing, etc.) Being insanely wealthy is very, very similar to having a “super power.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/67 "2014-06-20T00:58:23Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Matt… Helm? 😃 I think he’s counting attorney Matt Murdock as a “rich white professional.” ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/68 "2014-06-20T01:09:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is something a lot of us have come to figure out from doing superhero role-playing-gaming. (Champions, DC Heroes, Marvel Role Playing, etc.) Being insanely wealthy is very, very similar to having a “super power.” I was reading a superhero book recently (one of the _Wearing the Cape_ series) where one mentions this in relation the a super-power registration movement - that it’s basically like being rich or really smart in affecting the amount of good or bad someone can do. The superhero genre on Amazon is interesting, in that lots of it is just sci-fi that has people with powers. Many don’t fight crime or help others, most don’t wear costumes. Just having powers gets the stories lumped in, even stuff that was once traditional SF like telepaths and telekinetics. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/69 "2014-06-20T02:04:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is something a lot of us have come to figure out from doing superhero role-playing-gaming. (Champions, DC Heroes, Marvel Role Playing, etc.) Being insanely wealthy is very, very similar to having a “super power.” I don’t think Sheldon Adelson or Warren Buffet will be leaping over any tall buildings anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/70 "2014-06-20T04:49:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t think Sheldon Adelson or Warren Buffet will be leaping over any tall buildings anytime soon. Yeah…but endowing a hospital cancer ward is damn near as cool. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/71 "2014-06-20T14:09:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think Sheldon Adelson or Warren Buffet will be leaping over any tall buildings anytime soon. Either one could, if they wanted. There are such things as jetpacks, just incredibly less practical than the ones depicted in fiction. But they’re within the means of a billionaire like Adelson or Buffet. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/72 "2014-06-20T19:15:45Z")
Ross Perot is the closest thing to a billionaire super hero that I can think of. I’m thinking of his arranging a rescue of 2 EDS employees locked in an Iranian prison. [On Wings of Eagles - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Wings_of_Eagles) Full disclosure: I’m not a fan of Ross Perot’s politics or conspiracy theories. I welcome other examples. I’ll note that Perot hired another guy to carry out the heroics, which was highly practical in the real world where hostage extraction is a specialized skill like anything else. Other examples: Bill Gates and George Soros are 2 hands-on humanitarians, but while that is laudatory it isn’t quite the same as throwing cars around. Probably better, but not the same. Branson is an interesting character, but his spaceships aren’t yet superior to those of big guv, though someday they may be more economical. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/73 "2014-06-20T19:18:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Think of two Ron Perlman offerings: “Beauty and the Beast,” and “Hellboy.” The latter is a little bit more “science fictionish” because it deals with the wider spread of the knowledge of mystical stuff out into the “real world.” Was there any mystical stuff in the 80s _Beauty & the Beast_, though? Other than Vincent, whose freakishness was, I think, left unexplained, I do not recall any. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793/74 "2014-06-20T20:19:24Z")
Wasn’t there an underground alchemical lab in one story? It’s been a long time, and I didn’t watch it regularly (probably caught one episode in five) but I had the impression there was a recurring low level of mystical mumbo. (If not, okay, exchange “I Dream of Jeannie.”) 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-superhero-genre-science-fiction/690793.md?page=3)