# Is the "t" in "mortgage", silent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 13, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056 "2002-03-13T14:05:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/1 "2002-03-13T14:05:05Z")
Or do most people just mispronounce it? Also, if I am doing a project on cars, is my project “car oriented” or “car orientated”? ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/2 "2002-03-13T14:26:24Z")
mor gij It’ silent. Websters says so. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/3 "2002-03-13T14:28:53Z")
and…“car oriented”, not "orientated. Orientated referes to the dealing with the Orient, the countries of the East. ---
**Author:** ![ski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@ski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ski)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/4 "2002-03-13T14:34:27Z")
Since it’s oriented and not orientated, why is it orientation and not oriention? ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/5 "2002-03-13T14:41:16Z")
Thank you, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/6 "2002-03-13T15:04:07Z")
all the online dictionaries (don’t have a real one) give oriented and orientated as being synonymous. I think modern usage is either, only a pedant would really worry. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/7 "2002-03-13T15:32:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ski \* > \*\*Since it’s oriented and not orientated, why is it orientation and not oriention? \*\* Because words were not designed to follow rules. Rules were designed to describe words – often inaccurately. ---
**Author:** ![Janet\_O](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Janet\_O](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Janet_O)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/8 "2002-03-13T15:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the “t” in “mortgage”, silent? Yes, it’s silent. Like the “P” in toilet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/9 "2002-03-13T15:40:21Z")
I’m Australian, and until I really started mingling with people from the US online (and watching American TV shows), I had ONLY heard people say Orientated. I believe it’s a regional thing and both are considered correct - in the US at least. (I once lost marks at school for using the spelling “color” because “It’s wrong - that’s the American spelling” so I’m not going to put money on it being totally accepted in Australia). ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/10 "2002-03-13T16:11:38Z")
Now I understand why I’ve felt somewhat disorientated at times. [slight hijack] Talking about the orient: there’s a sport called orienteering. Can anyone explain to me why a person involved with it is called “an orienteer” instead of “orienteer **er** ”? WHen I first saw this spelling by native users of thee English spelling (which I am not) I started correcting it. [/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/11 "2002-03-13T16:37:04Z")
Orientated = geographically positioned, located. As in how far East you are Oriented = inclined, or “about”, as in a car-oriented project. Mortgage is from French for “dead pledge”. In French “mort” (dead) is pronounced “more”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/12 "2002-03-14T04:38:38Z")
as opposed to another early form of pledging land for security, the _vif-gage_, in which the mortgagee was in possession of the land and received the fruits of the land to pay down the loan, hence a “living pledge.” ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/13 "2002-03-14T05:51:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hemlock \* > \*\*Orientated = geographically positioned, located. As in how far East you are > Oriented = inclined, or “about”, as in a car-oriented project. > > \*\* **NO!!!** :eek: Orientated is never, ever correct. Stop making up meanings for it. This is bad! Nearly as bad as apostrophe abuse! ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/14 "2002-03-14T06:08:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ski \* > \*\*Since it’s oriented and not orientated, why is it orientation and not oriention? \*\* Because “oriention” would be pronounced “or-i-en-shun”, and that loses the hard “t” of the root form, “orient”. Thus, the “-ta-” syllable is added. The same pattern is evident in many other words: “notation” (from “note”), “citation” (from “cite”), “reputation” (from “repute”), “regimentation” (from “regiment”), “accreditation” (from “accredit”), “deforestation” (from “deforest”), and countless others. “Orientate” is wrong for the same reason that “deforestate”, “accreditate”, “regimentate”, “reputate”, “citate”, and “notate” are wrong. The only exception I am aware of is “rotation” (from “rotate”, not “rote”). In general, if you want to denominalize a “-tion” form, and the resulting word ends in “-tate”, please consider whether the “-ta-” should be elided. In almost every case, it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/15 "2002-03-14T09:22:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > \*\* > > **NO!!!** :eek: > Orientated is never, ever correct. Stop making up meanings for it. This is bad! Nearly as bad as apostrophe abuse! \*\* But not as bad as ranting opinions in **GQ** without citing any sources. If you were to look up [orientated](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=orientates) in a dictionary you’d find that both alternatives are accepted. For a more thorough study, look at Michael Quinions excellent article at [WorldWideWords](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ori1.htm) He quotes Fowler saying that (at least in the UK) > [@](#): > > one can have no fundamental quarrel with anyone who decides to use the longer of the two words Supposedly the longer form is slightly less common on the other sode of the pond, but both Merriam-Webster and American Heritage accept both spellings. My recomendation is to relax a bit. And always to back up opinions with fact! No amount of colours, exclamations marks or smilies can make up for absence of hard facts. ---
**Author:** ![Xerxes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/d2c977/32.png) [@Xerxes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xerxes)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/16 "2002-03-14T10:19:51Z")
Here’s another cite: The Oxford Guide to English Usage says > [@](#): > > In meaning the two words are virtually synonymous. In general, as opposed to technical use, _orientate_ seems to be predominant (ed: perhaps only in the UK), but either is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/17 "2002-03-14T13:07:05Z")
Dictionaries report on what is actually used, not on what is acceptable. “Orientate” is not acceptable just because there are a lot of idiots who use it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/18 "2002-03-14T13:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > **Dictionaries report on what is actually used, not on what is acceptable.** Since, unlike the French, American speakers of English don’t have a Ministry of Culture to arbitrate language issues, who exactly decides what is acceptable? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by KellyM_ > \*\*“Orientate” is not acceptable just because there are a lot of idiots who use it. \*\* If a lot of past “idiots” hadn’t changed the way they used the language, we would still be speaking the English of Chaucer, or that of the KJV. ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/19 "2002-03-14T14:23:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > **Dictionaries report on what is actually used, not on what is acceptable.** There are two major philosophies guiding dictionary writers: descriptive or prescriptice. [ul][li]A **descriptive** dictionary **describes** the way the language is spoken today. A good example would be the _New Oxford Dictionary of English_ (NODE) (It is unfortunatelly not available on-line.)[/li][li] A **prescriptive** dictionary describes how the language **ought to** behave. A good example is _American Heritage Dictionary_ (available on-line at [www.bartleby.com/61/](http://www.bartleby.com/61/) )[/ul][/li]To get a taste of the difference, look at the entries for **hopefully** at [American Heritage](http://www.bartleby.com/61/41/H0274100.html) and [Merriam-Webster](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=hopefully), which will here serve as an example of a (relatively) descriptive dictionary. Let’s now get back to the OP: **orientate** : Even American Heritage accepts the variant [orientate](http://www.bartleby.com/61/98/O0119800.html), which means that it has managed to get through what is considered one of the most conservative usage panels known to man. (In the English language, that is - we all know about hte French;) - And **JohnM** , it’s not the ministry of culture, it’s the [Academie Francaise](http://www.academie-francaise.fr/)) ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-t-in-mortgage-silent/98056/20 "2002-03-14T14:58:01Z")
That’s what Celebrity Boxing was missing last night… Merriam-Webster versus American Heritage!