# Is the Time Coming When There Just Aren't Enough Jobs to Go Around? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360 "2010-05-05T01:27:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/101 "2010-05-08T22:38:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You seem to think that corporations exist for the purpose of employing people. > The problem, IMHO, is this “me me me” entitlement attitude people in this country have grown up with. The education teaches people that as long as they do what they are told (mostly by BAs making $40,000 a year) they advance to the next level. K-5, middle school, high school, college, maybe grad school and so on. So by the time people are in their 20s, they automatically expect that will continue. > > The working world is not like that. You generally don’t apply and get hired just because you are qualified. You don’t automatically advance to the next level in your company just because you completed all the requested tasks over the year. It’s all about being able to perform work that someone else needs doing. It doesn’t matter if you are a plumber, computer programmer or a lawyer. If people don’t need pipes fixed, applications written or lawyerin’, no one is going to pay you. > > In other words, it’s not about what you want. It’s about what other people need done. What do you base that on? I said they were going to ship another 30 percent of their jobs abroad. How could that mean I think they exist for the purpose of employing people? That makes no sense at all. However some countries do protect their jobs. But our corporations are designed to make money without a conscience. That is not a good thing for the country. It is good for the company though. I am well aware that job loyalty is a one way street. The company will replace you if they can make more money. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/102 "2010-05-08T22:43:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You seem to think that corporations exist for the purpose of employing people. > The problem, IMHO, is this “me me me” entitlement attitude people in this country have grown up with. The education teaches people that as long as they do what they are told (mostly by BAs making $40,000 a year) they advance to the next level. K-5, middle school, high school, college, maybe grad school and so on. So by the time people are in their 20s, they automatically expect that will continue. > > The working world is not like that. You generally don’t apply and get hired just because you are qualified. You don’t automatically advance to the next level in your company just because you completed all the requested tasks over the year. It’s all about being able to perform work that someone else needs doing. It doesn’t matter if you are a plumber, computer programmer or a lawyer. If people don’t need pipes fixed, applications written or lawyerin’, no one is going to pay you. > > In other words, it’s not about what you want. It’s about what other people need done. What do you base that on? I said they were going to ship another 30 percent of their jobs abroad. How could that mean I think they exist for the purpose of employing people? That makes no sense at all. However some countries do protect their jobs. But our corporations are designed to make money without a conscience. That is not a good thing for the country. It is good for the company though. I am well aware that job loyalty is a one way street. The company will replace you if they can make more money. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/103 "2010-05-08T23:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] I said they were going to ship another 30 percent of their jobs abroad. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Do you have a cite either that American corporations have shipped 30% of their staffs off shore or that they plan to ship ANOTHER 30% ‘of their jobs abroad’?? :smack: What am I thinking? I’m asking you for a cite as if you would back up one of your bullshit assertions with actual facts! > [@](#): > > However some countries do protect their jobs. Which countries protect their jobs…and how has that worked out for them? AFAIK, many countries outsource…ironically, many of them outsource HERE. But you don’t get that, do you? > [@](#): > > But our corporations are designed to make money without a conscience. Right…corporations are constructs designed to make money. Anyone (or any country) that doesn’t understand this is going to epic fail. Happily, the only countries that don’t understand this are generally nutball communist countries or failed socialist states, so the only ones they hurt have been their own citizens. The point, of course, is that corporations make money which is then used by society in the form of taxes…the assumption being that society/government has something remotely resembling a ‘conscience’. > [@](#): > > That is not a good thing for the country. Wrong. But really, what’s the point of discussing this with you? > [@](#): > > It is good for the company though. It’s good for the country and good for the countries we participate in trade with as well. What’s not good for the country is to try and artificially keep jobs here (and wages and benefits high), because that leads to disaster. Again, I realize that this is all going over your head, even though it’s economics 101 stuff. Your populist horseshit is grating, however, because sadly so many believe as you do. If you ever got your wish then you’d drive the US onto the same path the Brits went down in the 60’s and 70’s. Then you’d whine and complain about how bad things are and blame…the corporations! Instead of your own misguided and ill-informed programs. > [@](#): > > The company will replace you if they can make more money. That’s right, they will. Most likely they will replace you with a robot who can do the same job instead of the bugaboo of outsourcing you are so worried about, but certainly they will do this. If they don’t then they won’t be able to compete with companies (in the US or outside) who are willing to update their technology and streamline their business practices. I’m sure that your head is exploding right now, but this is simply reality. -XT ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/104 "2010-05-08T23:59:10Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What do you base that on? I said they were going to ship another 30 percent of their jobs abroad. How could that mean I think they exist for the purpose of employing people? Because the implication of your statement is that they shouldn’t ship those jobs even if there is a legitimate business purpose for doing so. > [@gonzomax](#): > > However some countries do protect their jobs. But our corporations are designed to make money without a conscience. That is not a good thing for the country. It is good for the company though. Companies are designed to make money within the framework of laws set by government and society. I would think that the failures of GM, Bear Sterns, Enron, and others would demonstrate that when companies violate those laws or fail to meet the needs of society, they are sanctioned and may be dismantled. Of course this is a two-edged sword as the failure of a company will result in short term unemployment and reallocation of assets. People don’t like this so they demand protection which usually takes the form of bailouts and subsidies. And then of course they complain about taxpayer dollars being used to prop up shitty businesses. Which is really why politics is the art of justifying why your interests should be protected ahead of other people’s. As a general rule though, what is good for business is good for the country. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I am well aware that job loyalty is a one way street. The company will replace you if they can make more money. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/105 "2010-05-09T01:13:44Z")
On the plus side, peak oil should bring jobs back to North America when no one can afford to ship anything around the world. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/106 "2010-05-09T01:59:50Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Whisperer] On the plus side, peak oil should bring jobs back to North America when no one can afford to ship anything around the world. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t hold your breath, unless you like to be blue… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/107 "2010-05-09T16:34:15Z")
The price of oil is only one component in transportation costs. If the price of oil doubles, that doesn’t double transportation costs. And even when transportation costs double, transportation costs are only one component of the cost of a good. So if a widget can be be made in China for $1, and shipped to the US for $1, it’s cheaper than a widget made in the US for $2 and shipped across the US for $0.50. Transoceanic containerized shipping is dirt cheap. It’s cheaper to ship something across the world by container ship than it is to ship it across the state with a fleet of trucks. If the price of fuel increases the cost of shipping will increase, but so will the cost of trucks and trains. If you can’t ship it profitably from China to New York, you probably can’t ship it profitably from Chicago to New York either. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/108 "2010-05-11T01:50:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Because the implication of your statement is that they shouldn’t ship those jobs even if there is a legitimate business purpose for doing so. > > Companies are designed to make money within the framework of laws set by government and society. I would think that the failures of GM, Bear Sterns, Enron, and others would demonstrate that when companies violate those laws or fail to meet the needs of society, they are sanctioned and may be dismantled. > > Of course this is a two-edged sword as the failure of a company will result in short term unemployment and reallocation of assets. People don’t like this so they demand protection which usually takes the form of bailouts and subsidies. And then of course they complain about taxpayer dollars being used to prop up shitty businesses. Which is really why politics is the art of justifying why your interests should be protected ahead of other people’s. > > As a general rule though, what is good for business is good for the country. [http://www.outsourcing-offshore.com/meta.html](http://www.outsourcing-offshore.com/meta.html) Offshoring to continue unabated. I would argue with that neanderthal statement. What is good for the American worker is good for the country. America was humming along nicely before offshoring made the rich even richer. The wealth is being taken to the top where it is far less beneficial to the country. We are being hollowed out for profits. Corporations when we were founded had an easily removable charter. If they did things that hurt the nation, it could be revoked. I see lots of financial companies whose charters should have been yanked. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/109 "2010-05-11T02:01:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > America was humming along nicely before offshoring made the rich even richer. Gosh, the economy never had any problems before offshoring. It was just constant growth forever. There were never any recessions or depressions. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/110 "2010-05-11T02:12:21Z")
Good grief. Gonzo…that article is from 2004! Did you even read your own bullshit cite?? Here is the title: > [@](#): > > META Predicts Offshoring Will Continue to Grow at 20 Percent Clip Through 2008 > [@](#): > > Publish Date: December 2004 -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/111 "2010-05-11T04:16:07Z")
[http://www.angeloueconomics.com/documents/OffshoringWhitePaper\_001.pdf](http://www.angeloueconomics.com/documents/OffshoringWhitePaper_001.pdf) Heres one about offshoring that goes to 2015 predictions. 2004 was that long ago? If you hit the nets and look for offshoring of the future, you will see prediction after prediction that IT is key to future offshoring. White collar jobs of all levels are the slated to go. Just get used to it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/112 "2010-05-11T04:24:16Z")
Well…2004 (which your next BS cite was also written in btw) was, last time I checked, 6 years ago. Do you have anything on the supposed dangers of outsourcing that are, you know, a bit more up to date? Even if I take your BS outdated cite at face value, did you actually READ it? They are predicting 3 million jobs to be ‘lost’ through outsourcing by 2015. Do you understand that a lot more jobs will be created in that time frame than lost? Do you understand that more jobs have been lost due to automation than were ‘lost’ due to outsourcing? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/113 "2010-05-16T09:28:06Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > This is what has perturbed me in the past and still somewhat perturbs me…how much we spend on shit. I have talked with wife/kids about this and they really don’t see it. > > My wife is pretty good and she did think it was a good idea to sell the 3300 square foot house and get a 1400 square foot townhome (which really has worked out great! - Everyone now thinks this was a good idea - we are closer to the city/more in the center of things - was a winning decision) > > However…we still spend per year: > > $2520 on cable/phone internet. > $1210 on cell phones > About $5000 on car payment (we have 2 cars - we actually do ‘ok’ here) > About $1000 on insurance. > Gas - heck about $2500 as a guess > > I mean…holy crap! Can’t we cut most of this crap out? Would it really be so bad to not have to have a car…to ditch cell phones etc etc? > > I mean…if we were to just cut out most of the fluff, it would be close to my wife’s take home salary. > > Sigh…I guess I’m an old geezer/Luddite. I don’t see it either. Most or all of that “fluff” can actually be used to save time or money in one way or another. When you’re out of the house and you have a mobile phone with internet access, you can find out whether it’s worth the gas and time to drive to store X to buy something–that is, you can find out beforehand if they have it, and how much it costs. The Internet, for free, gives you a an academic library’s worth of worthwhile content–plus some other stuff:) . We do have more TVs, recorded music and the equipment to play it, but the cost of enjoying live performances or movies is prohibitive on a frequent basis. And most of those TVs and mobile phones and computers and iPods come at a cost that is negligible amortized over their useful lifetimes. Yet the cost of the actual houses in which we would lead these humble, gadget-free lives, has exploded–along with food, education, fuel, the cars we pump that fuel into, and insurance. A lot of things that used to be free, like museums and zoos, now come with the cost of parking and admission. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360/114 "2010-05-16T09:40:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You seem to think that corporations exist for the purpose of employing people. > . Not at all. But any one corporation presumably needs a marketplace in which _other_ corporations do employ people and pay them sufficiently to be able to buy the first corporation’s products. Would Wal\*Mart’s profits be anywhere near as big as they are if a great many of their customers didn’t enjoy far better pay and benefits at their non-WallyWorld jobs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-time-coming-when-there-just-arent-enough-jobs-to-go-around/538360.md?page=5)