# Is the Toyota acceleration problem actually just mass hysteria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969 "2010-03-10T14:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/61 "2010-03-13T01:24:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I wouldn’t discount a hoax but as has been pointed out, the “gear shift” is nothing but an over-sized switch because it’s drive by wire. It also doesn’t shift into neutral when first engaged. You have to hold it there (at speed) just as you have to hold the start button to shut it down. It is wholly different than a real gear shift which directly controls the transmission. My car has a reverse lockout in the lever so you can just push it into neutral without worrying about hitting reverse. There is a bunch of stuff that is very suspicious about that article. I never saw any coverage that claimed that the highway patrolman bumped cars - which would be absurd at those speeds. The writer claimed that you don’t need to take a hand off the steering wheel to shift, which is obviously untrue from the picture. He seemed to think it odd that the guy never shifted into neutral. I have had my Prius for just over a month, and I never had. I was unaware that you have to hold the stick in neutral for a while for it to work. I am aware that the Park button does not work at high speeds, for obvious reasons. He obviously didn’t try to pull up the accelerator with his hands - a foot, maybe. I wonder what he really said, or if he just misspoke. As for shifting, someone driving around San Diego wouldn’t ever have a reason to shift with an automatic transmission. The only time I ever do that is going to Tahoe, and there are no similar attractions there. It might be a hoax (though one exceedingly dangerous to the hoaxer, and one involving the close attention of the police) but it is not obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/62 "2010-03-13T01:27:21Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Heh, what a coincidence, I was looking for more info on the California guy\* and I came across this about: > > [Steve Wosniak](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10445564-64.html?tag=newsLatestHeadlinesArea.0) > > \*Who does sound like a nut-job. Well, no one can accuse the Woz of doing it for the money or the fame. it is interesting that he calls it reproducible. I have a 2010, but luckily I don’t like cruise control. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/63 "2010-03-13T01:31:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There is a bunch of stuff that is very suspicious about that article. I never saw any coverage that claimed that the highway patrolman bumped cars - which would be absurd at those speeds. > > The writer claimed that you don’t need to take a hand off the steering wheel to shift, which is obviously untrue from the picture. > > He seemed to think it odd that the guy never shifted into neutral. I have had my Prius for just over a month, and I never had. I was unaware that you have to hold the stick in neutral for a while for it to work. I am aware that the Park button does not work at high speeds, for obvious reasons. > > He obviously didn’t try to pull up the accelerator with his hands - a foot, maybe. I wonder what he really said, or if he just misspoke. As for shifting, someone driving around San Diego wouldn’t ever have a reason to shift with an automatic transmission. The only time I ever do that is going to Tahoe, and there are no similar attractions there. > > It might be a hoax (though one exceedingly dangerous to the hoaxer, and one involving the close attention of the police) but it is not obvious. I find most stories of how people react to these situations to be pretty lame so it’s hard for me to criticize this guy more than others. I’m interested in how the Prius gear selector feels to the user. Is it a neutral feeling switch with solid detents for the selections? Is there a button to prevent it from moving from drive to reverse? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/64 "2010-03-13T03:52:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I wouldn’t discount a hoax but as has been pointed out, the “gear shift” is nothing but an over-sized switch because it’s drive by wire. It also doesn’t shift into neutral when first engaged. You have to hold it there (at speed) just as you have to hold the start button to shut it down. It is wholly different than a real gear shift which directly controls the transmission. My car has a reverse lockout in the lever so you can just push it into neutral without worrying about hitting reverse. Whether it’s drive by wire or not, the fact is he didn’t even try despite multiple people pleading with him to do it. If he had actually tried, then maybe you would have something. In fact, by his own claim, he did not even try to shift it into neutral. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/65 "2010-03-13T04:01:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m interested in how the Prius gear selector feels to the user. Is it a neutral feeling switch with solid detents for the selections? Is there a button to prevent it from moving from drive to reverse? The Prius shifter feels more natural to me than any other shifter I have ever used (manual or auto). The positions are really obvious and easy to find. It’s certainly different - and unusual - the first time you use it though. Two unusual things about it: - to get it into neutral, you have to hold it there for like half a second. - Whatever position you select, it springs back to the central position as seen [in this picture](http://www.raggedclown.com/2010/03/11/patriotic-toyotas/) I can imagine people panicking when it doesn’t go into neutral after a hasty flick and I can imagine lots of people not knowing what the N is for. The only time I ever used the N position was when I was testing it last weekend to see if it works 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/66 "2010-03-13T06:41:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As I stated before, it doesn’t matter whether throttle position is taken from the foot pedal or the throttle shaft so it doesn’t matter from a computer standpoint because fuel is applied based on air mass. It may allow for a simpler system but I disagree that a drive-by-wire is as safe. A mechanical throttle allows the user control over the computer by limiting the amount of air that enters an engine. If a computer sees an electrical signal as WOT then it will control the vehicle as such. I don’t have fly-by-wire in my airplane and there is no backup system for the mechanical controls. the only redundancy is the ignition. I mention this to illustrate that one size doesn’t fit all and in this case it makes sense to allow the signal for more fuel to come from a mechanical throttle sensor. :rolleyes: You’re kinda fuzzy on how all this stuff works aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/67 "2010-03-13T10:31:13Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > :rolleyes: > You’re kinda fuzzy on how all this stuff works aren’t you? granted most of my performance tinkering has been with late 80’s/early 90’s fuel injection but it’s all a variation of the same theme. Sensors may change but the process is basically the same. Your previous post mentioned mechanical throttle failure but you failed to establish a pattern with a specific car or brand and that’s what we’re talking about. There have been numerous reports of Toyota/Lexus acceleration problems. Since it’s a drive-by-wire scenario that means the computer is seeing a WOT or near-WOT and ignoring brake input. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/68 "2010-03-13T16:37:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Well, no one can accuse the Woz of doing it for the money or the fame. it is interesting that he calls it reproducible. I have a 2010, but luckily I don’t like cruise control. This is the problem as he described it and method for reproducing it (taken from [here](http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1430048&cid=29973870)): > [@](#): > > I have owned many Prius’s. I currently drive a 2010 one. Let’s say that I’m in some place where the speed 85 mph is legal. I can nudge my cruise control speed lever and my speed barely goes up, say from 80 to 81.I nudge at again and again, up to 83. Then I nudge it again and the car takes off, no speed limit. Nudging the cruise speed control lever down has no effect until I’ve done it about 10 times or more. By then my Prius is doing 97. It’s scary because it’s so wrong and so out of your normal control. I tested this over and over the night I observed it. > > It’s scary because you don’t think of things like putting the car in neutral when this happens. I am sure you can’t turn the car off with the keyless power button, the only option on this model. > > Braking does disable this scary cruise control effect. It is a natural response, so the problem is mitigated a great deal. > > I have not seen this happen before so I think it’s new to the 2010. I have the package which includes parallel parking assist and cruise control distance limiter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/69 "2010-03-13T20:04:29Z")
Interesting anecdotal radio call-in today (car repair show). The caller’s wife experienced the engine acceleration and he in turn experienced it. He said it started at 10-15 mph and pulled hard but not as if it was floored. The brakes didn’t disengage it until he put it in neutral and he said the floor pedal was not stuck. The most recent news event driving this discussion involved a top speed of 94 mph and judging from Prius forums this is a good 10 mph under the top speed. So either the car didn’t have sufficient distance to reach the top speed or the computer wasn’t seeing a “wide open throttle” signal. Given the phone conversation I’d say the car had plenty of time to reach 94 mph if it the accelerator was stuck fully depressed. This is relevant in diagnosing the problem and suggests the pedal isn’t stuck down. If it was a Lexus with a conventional transmission it would make me wonder if there is a high-idle map in the program that is designed to ignore the brake (as if it’s in park warming up). However, the Prius uses a planetary gear/electrical motor for a transmission so it’s forward motion is dependent on the electrical motor/ generator. So there are number of possibilities here: 1. a pedal that sticks in the wide open throttle position (fixed using a spacer) 2. a pedal that sticks in any position due to floor mats (covers both a Prius and a Lexus) 3. a computer fault that sees a request for power AND ignores brake pedal input (totally different programing in Prius and Lexus computers unless it’s a Lexus hybrid). ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/70 "2010-03-13T21:11:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So there are number of possibilities here: > > 1. a pedal that sticks in the wide open throttle position (fixed using a spacer) > 2. a pedal that sticks in any position due to floor mats (covers both a Prius and a Lexus) > 3. a computer fault that sees a request for power AND ignores brake pedal input (totally different programing in Prius and Lexus computers unless it’s a Lexus hybrid). Since Sikes himself has claimed he tried to physically lift the pedal and it would not budge we know that the only possible scenario is 1. Of course, then there is no reason not to put the car in neutral, which he didn’t even try. Why are you so deliberately ignoring the obvious possibility that he is faking it for a lawsuit settlement. Does anybody know what sort of information the on-board computer stores about speed, fuel and braking. Will the computer tell investigators that he wasn’t pressing the break at all, or better yet, that he was pressing the break and gas intermittently, thereby demonstrating that he always was in control? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/71 "2010-03-13T21:23:38Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Does anybody know what sort of information the on-board computer stores about speed, fuel and braking. Will the computer tell investigators that he wasn’t pressing the **break** at all, or better yet, that he was pressing the **break** and gas intermittently, thereby demonstrating that he always was in control? Nothing against you, you’re hardly the only one to do this, but for the love of all that is holy could you please spell the word “brake” correctly? It’s brake. Not break. It’s a small thing, but small things matter. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/72 "2010-03-13T21:46:15Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Since Sikes himself has claimed he tried to physically lift the pedal and it would not budge we know that the only possible scenario is 1. Of course, then there is no reason not to put the car in neutral, which he didn’t even try. Why are you so deliberately ignoring the obvious possibility that he is faking it for a lawsuit settlement. I wasn’t addressing his case specifically because it represents one of many. And a petal not budging can mean 2 things, the 2nd being that it is already fully retracted to idle. FWIW, Sikes could easily be faking it which means nothing he said is real. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/73 "2010-03-14T19:00:53Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > The Prius shifter feels more natural to me than any other shifter I have ever used (manual or auto). The positions are really obvious and easy to find. > > It’s certainly different - and unusual - the first time you use it though. > > Two unusual things about it: > > - to get it into neutral, you have to hold it there for like half a second. > - Whatever position you select, it springs back to the central position as seen [in this picture](http://www.raggedclown.com/2010/03/11/patriotic-toyotas/) > > I can imagine people panicking when it doesn’t go into neutral after a hasty flick and I can imagine lots of people not knowing what the N is for. The only time I ever used the N position was when I was testing it last weekend to see if it works 🙂 Holy moly, what a horrible design. No visual feedback at all if you went into neutral or not. Toyota should be sued just for that. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/74 "2010-03-14T20:31:56Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Holy moly, what a horrible design. No visual feedback at all if you went into neutral or not. Toyota should be sued just for that. It feels very natural to me…and for visual feedback, the selected position is clearly shown on the pseudo-heads-up dashboard (which I also like). There is a lot of horrible design in the Prius (it’s impossible to operate the switches on the steering wheel without looking down, for example) but I like the shifter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/75 "2010-03-14T23:33:13Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > It feels very natural to me…and for visual feedback, the selected position is clearly shown on the pseudo-heads-up dashboard (which I also like). > > There is a lot of horrible design in the Prius (it’s impossible to operate the switches on the steering wheel without looking down, for example) but I like the shifter. Thanks for the link to the knob layout. I gotta say, unless this is explained it would be very confusing. Add in bright sunlight against the display and you have a real problem knowing what “gear” your in an emergency where you have to weave in and out of traffic and don’t have a lot of time to stare at a dim display. I can’t think of a rational reason for having the knob snap back from any position. When you shift it into drive or reverse do you have to hold it there for half a second as well? When you park the car do you just leave it in the last gear it was in? If I designed it I would have put reverse and drive on an “L” pattern with neutral in the bend and a detent at each position. Brake can be another right angle to Drive. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/76 "2010-03-14T23:59:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When you shift it into drive or reverse do you have to hold it there for half a second as well? When you park the car do you just leave it in the last gear it was in? For park, there is a Big Blue Button with a P on it. Also, hitting the power puts it in park. I don’t know how many kinds of shifter I have used - 10s at least. The prius shifter is the most natural that I have ever used. It’s very obvious and ergonomic. It is certainly different from what most people are used to though. It took me a good 5 seconds to figure it out the first time. And honestly, the dashboard is very clear and bright too. There are lots of things to hate about Priuses - and, believe me, I hate my Prius - but the shifter and the dash are very well designed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/77 "2010-03-15T11:40:21Z")
According to the news Sikes is supposed to make a statement today so maybe hell fess up. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/78 "2010-03-15T13:21:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > According to the news Sikes is supposed to make a statement today so maybe hell fess up. If he shows up in an early 80s Audi that uncontrollably speeds up into the path of the reporters, I for one will not be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/79 "2010-03-15T20:12:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Thanks for the link to the knob layout. I gotta say, unless this is explained it would be very confusing. Add in bright sunlight against the display and you have a real problem knowing what “gear” your in an emergency where you have to weave in and out of traffic and don’t have a lot of time to stare at a dim display. I can’t think of a rational reason for having the knob snap back from any position. When you shift it into drive or reverse do you have to hold it there for half a second as well? When you park the car do you just leave it in the last gear it was in? > > If I designed it I would have put reverse and drive on an “L” pattern with neutral in the bend and a detent at each position. Brake can be another right angle to Drive. I’m glad you didn’t design it then, because I think that would be awful for such a tiny switch. 🙂 Even with the groove at each position I think that would make it easy to knock into the wrong setting very easily, absent an annoying additional switch that needed to be pressed. The existing switch is very easy to use - left and then down movement for drive, left and then up movement for reverse. It is quick and deliberate. I would agree that there is one flaw in this design: it is not obvious that shifting into neutral requires more than a quick flip. This is easy enough if you know it, but the design doesn’t guarantee that you would know it (I personally would never go out on the roads in a car if I didn’t understand basic things about it like shifting into neutral, but I recognize it is better to design for people who are not that thorough). Perhaps there could be a completely different direction to move it to get it to neutral that did not require the delay. I have a similar position to kevlaw (although I don’t hate my Prius). There are some things in this car that could be designed better, but the shifter is better than any more traditional one that I have used, and the display is designed in such a way that glare has never really been an issue. I also understand why they designed it such that it stays in one position: it can be treated just as an input device without state, so nothing mechanical is required to keep track of where the switch is currently set. As a result I typically just hit the power off button when stopping, which puts it in park and shuts it off (as opposed to explicitly hitting the park button). This would be difficult to do with a switch that physically stayed at a “drive” or “reverse” position. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969/80 "2010-03-18T19:31:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > According to the news Sikes is supposed to make a statement today so maybe hell fess up. No. The CHP report does not contradict Sikes: [The San Diego Union-Tribune: Local News, Sports and Things to Do](http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/17/chp-report-backs-driver-of-runaway-prius/) > [@SDUT](#): > > The officer could see Sikes almost standing up from his seat, perhaps to exert his body weight on the brakes. “His back was arched and both hands were pulling on the steering wheel,” Neibert recalled. … The driver looked over at me briefly and appeared to be in a panicked state.” Sikes’ fear & refusal (at first) to shift into neutral seems to me to be a different issue from whether or not something actually went wrong (temporarily, at least) with the car. I work on computers. I have seen intermittant faults that were hard to lock down. While I realise that the computer(s) in a car is a bit simpler (and thus more robust) than a Windows OS, my experience has biased me into believing that a car’s computer could possibly (if rarely) “hang” or “lock up” in some state or other, but then test fine later. Toyota’s flat assersions that nothing could be wrong with the electronics don’t fit my experience: anything Humans make breaks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-toyota-acceleration-problem-actually-just-mass-hysteria/531969.md?page=5)