# Is the U.S. a democracy or a republic? \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860 "2006-02-23T23:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/41 "2006-02-26T14:45:14Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > _Why_ is it important that the US isn’t a democracy? What agendas/policies/aspects of society that the advocates of “Republic Only” wish to pursue or prevent depend on the US _not_ being a democracy? I don’t like changing words for political ends and I see this a a attempt of the left to change a term for their benefit. In short I am anti- PC speak, and I see this PC speak - so I oppose it on that ground. ---
**Author:** ![ayalabmaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@ayalabmaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ayalabmaj)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/42 "2006-02-26T15:00:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t like changing words for political ends and I see this a a attempt of the left to change a term for their benefit. > > In short I am anti- PC speak, and I see this PC speak - so I oppose it on that ground. So you’d rather stick to an archaic, narrow definition of the word. Well, that is very conservative of you. I also congratulate you on your ability to define anything you oppose as being “PC.” Well done. :rolleyes: However, in your attempt to eradicate political correctness, you may have to look at the conservative end of the political spectrum if you wish to arrest the notion that the United States is a democracy > [@](#): > > Our American democracy is really an inspiration to the world. -George W. Bush (from [here](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/07/20010731-1.html).) Oh, Dubya, you PC thug! You liberal shill! You tool of the communists! ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/43 "2006-02-26T15:36:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t like changing words for political ends and I see this a a attempt of the left to change a term for their benefit. OK, what benefit does the left get from describing the USA as a democracy? Is it solely to encourage people to vote Democrat, or do they have other motives? Again, what would a declaration that the USA _isn’t_ a democracy enable you to do, or prevent the left from doing? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/44 "2006-02-26T17:07:09Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > OK, what benefit does the left get from describing the USA as a democracy? In reality I suspect not much expect confusing many people who won’t know what one means when one uses the term. > [@](#): > > Is it solely to encourage people to vote Democrat, or do they have other motives? Perhaps on a subconscience level, but I think that it is more due to their sense of ‘fairness’ that is behind the motivation. > [@](#): > > Again, what would a declaration that the USA _isn’t_ a democracy enable you to do, or prevent the left from doing? As pointed out above, it prevents changing the language in a way that adds confusion. I also find people use that when they want to do something that a (true) democracy would allow, but a republic may not, so by pointing this out it helps gound them into reality. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/45 "2006-02-26T17:15:58Z")
Going further on the PC line, I think is has gone so far that we have a reached a 2nd generation, where people actually think the US is a democracy, and that term defines what we have. On a side note, one version of Civilization (ironically a **PC** game)had Democracy represented by the statue of liberty, and Republic by some old Greek thing. Is it now correct that ancient Greece had a Republic, you know where the citizens voted directly for laws? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/46 "2006-02-26T19:00:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t like changing words for political ends and I see this a a attempt of the left to change a term for their benefit. > > In short I am anti- PC speak, and I see this PC speak - so I oppose it on that ground. This thread is already sufficiently acrimonious without introducing uninformed hostility. It has already been pointed out (by the language purists, no less) that references to the U.S. as a democracy are well over 50 years old. (Of course, it was then attributed to “the press,” an entity that was fully populated by folks on “the right” as well as “the left” throughout the period from 1920 through 1950–(elements of) “the press” were quite happy to support the Palmer Raids, the rise of Mussolini, then Hitler, Franco’s efforts in Spain, union busting, HUAC, and Joe McCarthy throughout that period.) Unless you have a citation demonstrating that this change in language was a deliberate effort undertaken by “the left” over thirty years prior to the concept of “political correctness,” it would be appropriate to leave such odd claims outside this thread. > [@](#): > > Is it now correct that ancient Greece had a Republic, you know where the citizens voted directly for laws? 1. What “old Greek thing” was portrayed? 2. Why are you claiming that a Republic means citizens voting directly for laws? (And I hope you are aware that Athens had a very limited franchise and was not the whole of Greece if you actually were referring to Democracy.) 3. How does some illustration on a game indicate anything more than the whim of some artist connected to display and sales rather than actual political philosophy? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/47 "2006-02-27T01:07:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As pointed out above, it prevents changing the language in a way that adds confusion. The language will change, has changed, is changing no matter what we do. We all have to deal with that. Blame whoever said that _“We must make the World safe for Democracy”_ or something that sounded a lot like that, c. 1917. (Maybe that was part of the problem – it’s not simple to rouse the masses with a battle cry of “Let’s make the world safe for Consitututional Representative-Participative Responsible Government subject to Rule of Law!” 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/48 "2006-02-27T05:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Why\_ is it important that the US isn’t a democracy? What agendas/policies/aspects of society that the advocates of “Republic Only” wish to pursue or prevent depend on the US _not_ being a democracy? Because these fringe political groups don’t want to admit that they’re fringe political groups. These groups have to explain why their pet program - whether it’s rounding up all the Jews or eliminating all private property - isn’t gaining widespread support and taking effect throughout the country. They reject the obvious answer - because their political ideas are nuts - and come up with an alternate explanation: the people support their ideas and would follow them if they could, but they can’t because we’re a republic not a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/49 "2006-02-27T09:40:04Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Because these fringe political groups don’t want to admit that they’re fringe political groups. These groups have to explain why their pet program - whether it’s rounding up all the Jews or eliminating all private property - isn’t gaining widespread support and taking effect throughout the country. They reject the obvious answer - because their political ideas are nuts - and come up with an alternate explanation: > > the people support their ideas and would follow them if they could, but they can’t because we’re a republic not a democracy. _(my paragraph break)_ Oddly, I had precisely the opposite opinion. (Although it’s not one to which I’m especially invested.) That is, the people wrongly oppose their ideas, believing the US to be a democracy, _when in fact_ it is a republic. And properly should be governed by &etc… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/50 "2006-02-27T15:56:51Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Oddly, I had precisely the opposite opinion. The end results are the same - _my theory of how the country should be run will work perfectly, except the system is aligned against me, blocking my plan_. The excuse works whether the “alignment” is too much democracy (people are stupid sheep and won’t vote in their own best interest) or too much republicanism (the arrogant power structure will never accept my plan, despite the people’s will). It covers all sins. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/51 "2006-02-27T16:03:12Z")
> [@chuckczrx](#): > > A few quotes from our Founding Fathers: . . . Yeah, yeah, they **said** all those bad things about democracy. Have you considered the possibility they might have been wrong? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/52 "2006-02-27T16:05:32Z")
> [@chuckczrx](#): > > Mikhail Gorbachev: “according to Lenin, socialism and democracy are indivisible… The essence of perestroika lies in the fact that it unites socialism with democracy and revives the Leninist concept… We want more socialism and, therefore, more democracy.” Good for him. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/53 "2006-02-27T16:40:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I think the OP is confusing the modern usage of “democracy”, which as **Giles** said pretty much just means significant electoral participation of some sort by the citizens, and the term’s original sense of **direct** (or “pure”, or “extreme”) democracy, where all the people vote on everything with no mediating representatives When someone gave examples of the UK and Canada, I thought of that. In the UK, we elect MPs who are representatives of their electorate and its the MPs who vote on issues in Parliament that become law. Canada and Switzerland have forms of direct democracy where the populace at large has more direct input into laws that are passed. Disclaimer; A lot of my own notions of the meaning of democracy and republic come from the manual for Civilization on the PC :o 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/54 "2006-02-27T16:58:51Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Canada [has] forms of direct democracy where the populace at large has more direct input into laws that are passed. Aside from the occasional referendum on major constitutional issues, not really. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/55 "2006-02-27T17:29:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Going further on the PC line, I think is has gone so far that we have a reached a 2nd generation, where people actually think the US is a democracy, and that term defines what we have. > > On a side note, one version of Civilization (ironically a **PC** game)had Democracy represented by the statue of liberty, and Republic by some old Greek thing. Is it now correct that ancient Greece had a Republic, you know where the citizens voted directly for laws? I think the “old Greek thing” is in fact an old Roman thing. The Romans pretty much being the original republic, though with a definition very different from any modern one. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/56 "2006-02-27T17:54:07Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > When someone gave examples of the UK and Canada, I thought of that. In the UK, we elect MPs who are representatives of their electorate and its the MPs who vote on issues in Parliament that become law. Canada and Switzerland have forms of direct democracy where the populace at large has more direct input into laws that are passed. We do? Canada’s system is fundamentally the same as the United Kingdom’s, except that we do it at a provincial level too. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/57 "2006-02-28T05:09:57Z")
We are a Republic in that we are not a Monarchy. We are a Democracy in that we get to vote. That’s basically It. Anything more is commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/58 "2006-02-28T09:50:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > We do? > > Canada’s system is fundamentally the same as the United Kingdom’s, except that we do it at a provincial level too. Thought you did for some reason 😕 Lets just scrub that and leave it at Switzerland. I’m really not sure why I mentioned Canada :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/59 "2006-03-02T07:36:08Z")
> [@chuckczrx](#): > > From John Marshall, Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, 1801 to 1835: “Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos.” As has been sufficiently explained, the confusion about the main question is mere semantics. But since we are playing the quote game, how about this one? > [@](#): > > From John Marshall, “Federalist” delegate to the Virginia constitutional ratification convention, [June 10th, 1788](http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_08.htm): > > “The supporters of the Constitution claim the fide of being firm friends of the liberty and the rights of mankind. They say that they consider it as the best means of protecting liberty. We, sir, idolize democracy. Those who oppose it have bestowed eulogiums on monarchy. We prefer this system to any monarchy, because we are convinced that it has a greater tendency to secure our liberty and promote our happiness. **We admire it, because we think it a well-regulated democracy.** ” > ( bolding mine ) - Just John Marshall’s 2¢ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860/60 "2006-03-03T19:52:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Is it now correct that ancient Greece had a Republic, you know where the citizens voted directly for laws? Ancient Greece had no national or general government of any kind. From the Trojan Wars to the Roman conquest, it was divided into independent cities, with various constitutional forms. Sparta might be characterized as an “aristocratic republic”; there was a public assembly and elected officials, but the laws (purportedly written by the legendary Lykurgos) were practically unchangeable, and there were two hereditary kings who mainly functioned as war-leaders. In the Athenian democracy – on which many other democracies were modeled, but Athens gets most attention from historians simply because it is the one about which most is known – the citizens did, indeed, vote directly on law and policy decisions. Of course, “citizens” means only free adult males of established Athenian families. There were also women, slaves, and “metics” (resident foreigners, including non-Athenian Greeks), who could not vote. Unlike in the Roman republic, there was no procedure for extending Athenian citizenship to newcomers. At that, political participation in Athens was rather broader than in Sparta. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian\_democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy). Many Greek cities were democratic in form, but in fact ruled by a political strongman or “tyrant” – just like many modern “republics.” The tyrant would sometimes use the title of “archon” (ruler), implicitly a democratic and constitutional one (just as Saddam Hussein styled himself “president”). Except in Sparta, no Greek ruler of the Classical period used the ancient title of “basileus” (king). Athens did have an “archon basileus,” drawn from the city’s ancient royal family, but his authority was limited to religious matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-democracy-or-a-republic-edited-title/345860.md?page=4)