# Is the U.S. a dictatorship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230 "2005-08-02T00:14:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/101 "2005-08-06T01:24:13Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I see you are still having difficulty in understanding. He’s not alone. Maybe you should take that as a hint. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/102 "2005-08-06T02:05:30Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > A sin is a tort (injury) against god. > A crime is a tort against liberty. > Those that do not recognize this difference call criminal to those that do not harm or threaten liberty. Vice laws have their origin on religious (moral) principles. (a.k.a. sins) In reality, a well regulated vice is not a threat to liberty and therefore, not a crime. The prohibition of vice is. A person drinking a glass of wine at a meal is not a threat. Under prohibition, that right is unjustly denied. vice laws (def): Laws prohibiting the unalienable right of pursuit. rwj ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/103 "2005-08-06T02:11:42Z")
So, if I have an unalienable right to free speech, and I tell someone a lie in order to sell someone a house, the law says that I have committed fraud. Is the fraud statute a dictatorial infringment on God given rights? Or do people have an inalienable right not to be lied to? If so, where is this right not to be lied to written down anywhere, other than in the fraud statute? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/104 "2005-08-06T02:20:39Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Is there no nation that is wholly **un** dictatorial? I do not know. Does Denmark have any prohibitions? As I said before, I am not that familiar with different countries. rwj ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/105 "2005-08-06T02:23:54Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I am not that familiar with different countries. Now _that_ I understand. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/106 "2005-08-06T02:29:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …if I have an unalienable right to free speech… You have the unalienable right of liberty. So does the prospective homeowner. There is no unalienable right to lie. rwj ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/107 "2005-08-06T03:01:55Z")
I don’t have the right to free speech? Where, exactly, is it written that I don’t have a God given right to lie to whomever I please? I think I have an inalienable right to free tacos on Tuesdays. Prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/108 "2005-08-06T03:20:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Prove me wrong. I have no desire to prove anything, much less you wrong. My goal is to secure liberty, even for the un-enlightened. rwj ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/109 "2005-08-06T03:20:35Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I have no desire to prove anything, much less you wrong. My goal is to secure liberty, even for the un-enlightened. And we thank you for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/110 "2005-08-06T04:48:55Z")
I’ve been keeping up with this thread and amazed that it hasn’t progressed or closed. I tried earlier, I’ll try again. OP, I _think_ you’re saying that you would love perfect overlap between the laws of God (Inalienable rights) and the laws of man. I guess we all would, be here’s the problem. At some point someone will infringe on the “inalienable right” of another. That person will be arrested and will offer an explanation for his crime. At that point, someone, whether a judge, jury, emperor, or dictator, will have to “judge” the truthfulness of statement and the the degree to which it might, or might not absolve him of the crime. Then punishment is meted out accordingly. Two questions: How would you propose this be handled? Do you see NO difference how this would be handled in a dictatorship and how it is handles in the U.S. system? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/111 "2005-08-06T18:21:52Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > (In having trouble understanding.) He’s not alone. Maybe you should take that as a hint. Color is not self-evident to the blind. Music is not self-evident to the deaf. Truth is not self-evident to the un-enlightened. ``` “My Father Chingachku warned me about people like you. He said do not try to understand them, and do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart.” -Hawkeye ``` I will try to listen more closely to my Father. rwj ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/112 "2005-08-06T18:23:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > might, or might not absolve him of the crime. Please review my definition of crime. Do you understand the difference between “crime” and what tyrants label “crime”? As far as I can tell, the only difference between tyranny and liberty is what the tyrants would call crime. Peace Only through Liberty rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/113 "2005-08-06T18:26:18Z")
I think the OP may be talking about victimless crimes. Not really sure though. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/114 "2005-08-06T18:45:17Z")
A person forfeits liberty only by taking or threatening the liberty of another. If no liberty is taken, no liberty is subject to forfeiture. Victimless “crimes” fall into that category. **magellan01** : Apologies for not answering more directly. Some dictatorships take life, some take liberty, and some take quest. There is great difference between dictatorships, but that does not mean they are NOT all dictatorships. dictatorship (def): a government that takes rights that have not been forfeit. rwj ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/115 "2005-08-06T18:47:53Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > "My Father Chingachku warned me about people like you. He said do not try to understand them, and do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart.” -Hawkeye Was that the episoide when he and Trapper played strip poker with the nurses? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/116 "2005-08-06T19:20:24Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > A person forfeits liberty only by taking or threatening the liberty of another. If no liberty is taken, no liberty is subject to forfeiture. Victimless “crimes” fall into that category. > > **magellan01** : Apologies for not answering more directly. Some dictatorships take life, some take liberty, and some take quest. There is great difference between dictatorships, but that does not mean they are NOT all dictatorships. > > dictatorship (def): a government that takes rights that have not been forfeit. > > rwj My question to you was to assume that a crime (loss of liberty or anything else that you might deem a crime) had, in fact been commited. So once this crime, as you define it, has been committed, meaning that somoene infringed on the “inalienable right” of another, what should be done? The person that’s been arrested offers an explanation for his crime and then someone–whether a judge, jury, emperor, or dictator–will have to “judge” the truthfulness of statements he makes in his defense, as well as the the degree to which those statements might, or might not absolve him of the crime. Then punishment is meted out accordingly. Two questions: How would you propose this be handled? Do you see NO difference how this would be handled in a dictatorship and how it is handles in the U.S. system? Please try to answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/117 "2005-08-06T23:12:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How would you propose this be handled? As in our current system, except we would [del]allow[/del] [del] insist[/del] require judges to consider whether the law itself equally addresses the unalienable rights of both. I have been told that judges are not. I am inclined to believe it. Do you have evidence that my understanding is wrong? > [@magellan01](#): > > Do you see NO difference how this would be handled in a dictatorship and how it is handles in the U.S. system. > [@rwjefferson](#): > > Some dictatorships take life, some take liberty, and some take quest. There is great difference between dictatorships. I see great differences with some, very little with others. Each system is unique, so of course there is a difference how it is handled in the U.S. system. Do you think the point that our system is different really matters to those that have been disenfranchised by our system? I have defined as clearly as I am able, what I mean when I say dictatorship. I gave the example of prohibition as a law dictating the unjust usurpation of unalienable right. Please tell me how this is not a “dictatorship of law”. Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/118 "2005-08-06T23:55:21Z")
This really is some great debate. You can’t support your own propositions (eg, can’t explain if Denmark is or isn’t a dictatorsihp), and can’t argue against others (eg, can’t explain why I don’t have an inalienable right to free taco Tuesdays). Oh, an not to mention the thinly veiled insults to everyone else who has contributed to a dead-end debate (eg, calling everyone else “unenlightened,” and comparing them to handicapped people). Perhaps this thread should be transferred to a new forum, “Great Screeds.” ---
**Author:** ![Ava\_Gina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Ava\_Gina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ava_Gina)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/119 "2005-08-07T00:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the US an ‘Absolute or despotic control or power’? Again, not that I’m aware of…see such things as the ammendment process. May I suggest you look into just what the republicans are doing in congress? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230/120 "2005-08-07T01:03:23Z")
Thanks for your reply. I’m going to bow out now. Tp perfectly honest, it is simply too difficult to understand you. In an attempt to be helpful, I’ve underlined particular passages/words that are confusing and explained why, not from an idological standpoint, simply from one of legibility. (To me, at least.) > [@rwjefferson](#): > > As in our current system, except we would [del]allow[/del] [del] insist[/del] require judges to consider whether the law itself equally addresses the unalienable rights of both. I have been told that judges are not. I am inclined to believe it. Do you have evidence that my understanding is wrong? I see great differences with some, very little with others. Each system is unique, so of course there is a difference how it is handled in the U.S. system. > > Do you think the point that our system is different really matters to those that have been disenfranchised by our system? > > I have defined as clearly as I am able, what I mean when I say dictatorship. I gave the example of prohibition as a law dictating the unjust usurpation of unalienable right. Please tell me how this is not a “dictatorship of law”. j • we would [del]allow[/del] [del] insist[/del] require judges - It is best to try to make specific points. Plus we do all of these things. If you’re problem is a matter of degree, you need to explain that. • both - I do not what two “things” you are referring to. • I have been told that judges are not. Not what? • Do you have evidence that my understanding is wrong? - Clear question. But I am unable to answer because I do not feel I understand what your understanding is. • “dictatorship of law” - From this I thiink I might finally understand what your point is: “dictatorship _by_ law”. That a body of laws can be so oppressive as to be as just as oppressive as a dictator. Then again, maybe I don’t. Based on your writing, my guess is that you’re either still in school or that English is not your first language. Whether or not I’m right about that, I’d like to offer you some advice, which, of course, you are free to ignore. •Take an a class in writing composition. It can only help, anyone. •Read good writers. It will help your writing, particularly your writing “ear”. •Proof your own work aloud, ideally, not immediately after you’ve written it. But, _definitely_ before you share it. •Understand that the burden of accurately communicating your thoughts rests upon you. •Use language that is familiar to your audience. This is particularly important when you’re trying to get people to look at things in a new way. I hope you take this advice in the spirit in which it is offered. Good luck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-a-dictatorship/315230.md?page=7)