# Is the U.S. maintaining "secret prisons" in Eastern Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239 "2005-11-29T18:11:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/41 "2005-12-06T20:17:58Z")
[**ABC Confirms Secret Prisons**](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1375123) “Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to _get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived_ there today.” Condi: “Secret prisons? I don’t see any secret prisons…” ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/42 "2005-12-06T20:25:07Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Welcome to the Nazification of America brought to you by your local Republican Party (who else)? > > (I know, it’s Godwinizing, but what the hell am I SUPPOSED to compare secret prisons with torture and death on the menu to?) Well, if you want to get technical, Soviet Gulags fit much better. Secret Prisions, Eastern Europe, No arrest or trial nesscary, Torture. All that fun stuff. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/43 "2005-12-06T21:00:49Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > [**ABC Confirms Secret Prisons**](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1375123) > “Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to _get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived_ there today.” > Condi: “Secret prisons? I don’t see any secret prisons…” Sort of a retroPotemkinist movement? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/44 "2005-12-06T23:22:56Z")
The thing is, IF these prisons were indeed discovered in Eastern Europe wouldn’t this set back (or even preclude) acceptance of the nation in question into the EU? Why would a country risk that? I was reading an article earlier where the president of the country (Romania I believe) basically denied his nation had such camps on exactly these grounds…they WANT to be invited into the EU and know that they won’t be if such ‘secret prisons’ are found. So…what would such a nation get out of having a US torture camp if it meant they would be denied access to the EU? What could the US give them that would compensate them for the risk? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/45 "2005-12-07T00:16:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The thing is, IF these prisons were indeed discovered in Eastern Europe wouldn’t this set back (or even preclude) acceptance of the nation in question into the EU? Why would a country risk that? I was reading an article earlier where the president of the country (Romania I believe) basically denied his nation had such camps on exactly these grounds…they WANT to be invited into the EU and know that they won’t be if such ‘secret prisons’ are found. > > So…what would such a nation get out of having a US torture camp if it meant they would be denied access to the EU? What could the US give them that would compensate them for the risk? Poland is already in the EU. Romania is still a good way off. All this will be forgotten when they get closer. Still, as far as I know, all the information about these holding facilities are coming out of the USA and out of the CIA. Your CIA is basically holed like an old sieve and about as good at keeping secrets as a group of pimpled teenage girls. Giving the impression of the CIA as a bunch of bumbling amateurs and not in any way what one should expect from the world’s greatest power. While the east European countries amazingly still try to cover your ass when it would have been so easy for them to have distanced themselves from you and sold you out - by all reason should have sold you out, given how you yourself are selling yourself out ten ways before sunday. You ask me. However it’s going to land. You owe those countries big time for this. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/46 "2005-12-07T00:55:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So…what would such a nation get out of having a US torture camp if it meant they would be denied access to the EU? What could the US give them that would compensate them for the risk? Perhaps something as simple as a cash infusion to various officials’ bank accounts. It’s not like people who engage in “disappearing” and torturing people are going to say “\< gasp \> But that’s _bribery_ - we can’t do _that_ !!”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/47 "2005-12-07T01:13:35Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Perhaps something as simple as a cash infusion to various officials’ bank accounts. It’s not like people who engage in “disappearing” and torturing people are going to say “\< gasp \> But that’s bribery - we can’t do that !!”. If they were totalitarian governments I’d say you might have a point. I don’t see being able to bribe just a few officials though to get something like this in…not when the risks are so high. Though if Rune is right then perhaps there really aren’t that many risks…if the EU will simply forget in 2 years (I believe Romania is due to join in 2007 IIRC) then maybe they wouldn’t even need bribes to put these things in their countries. Or maybe we don’t know the whole story yet and folks are just assuming that this is all true at face value. -XT ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/48 "2005-12-07T02:25:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Still, as far as I know, all the information about these holding facilities are coming out of the USA and out of the CIA. Your CIA is basically holed like an old sieve and about as good at keeping secrets as a group of pimpled teenage girls. Giving the impression of the CIA as a bunch of bumbling amateurs and not in any way what one should expect from the world’s greatest power. I suspect that the leaks are coming out of the CIA because there are CIA officials who want no part of these sorts of activities. Not so much bumbling amateurs, but an agency being asked to act unethically at the behest of of an administration it’s at odds with. I think there’s a number of veteran agents that are upset at the Bush administration and at their colleagues who have sold out to it. This is all pure speculation on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/49 "2005-12-07T02:34:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The thing is, IF these prisons were indeed discovered in Eastern Europe wouldn’t this set back (or even preclude) acceptance of the nation in question into the EU? Why would a country risk that? I was reading an article earlier where the president of the country (Romania I believe) basically denied his nation had such camps on exactly these grounds…they WANT to be invited into the EU and know that they won’t be if such ‘secret prisons’ are found. > > So…what would such a nation get out of having a US torture camp if it meant they would be denied access to the EU? What could the US give them that would compensate them for the risk? > > -XT Like most people engaging in criminal activities, they probably didn’t think they’d be found out. Hence the SECRET part of SECRET prisons. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/50 "2005-12-07T02:40:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So…what would such a nation get out of having a US torture camp if it meant they would be denied access to the EU? What could the US give them that would compensate them for the risk? > > -XT Because they know pretty well it won’t result in them being denied access to the EU. At worst, they’ll have to allow some sort of enquiry. Besides, I’m convinced EU governments and intelligence services knew pretty well what was happening. I even think they probably cooperated in many cases. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/51 "2005-12-07T03:45:18Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Like most people engaging in criminal activities, they probably didn’t think they’d be found out. Hence the SECRET part of SECRET prisons. That would be a rather silly assumption IMHO…especially considering its the US involved. We keep secrets like a sieve keeps water. Its always amusing when people talk about this supposed veil of secrecy that Bush et al have cast over the government…as ‘secret’ after ‘secret’ comes out right there in the popular press. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Because they know pretty well it won’t result in them being denied access to the EU. At worst, they’ll have to allow some sort of enquiry. Hm. Well, I would think that such a human rights violation would be grounds from keeping them out (why else is Turkey put on the back burner supposedly?), but if you don’t think it would matter then I suppose my arguement (and by extension the quote I read earlier from the president of Romania) is invalid. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Besides, I’m convinced EU governments and intelligence services knew pretty well what was happening. I even think they probably cooperated in many cases. Interesting. How would you feel about that if it were true? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/52 "2005-12-07T05:13:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That would be a rather silly assumption IMHO…especially considering its the US involved. We keep secrets like a sieve keeps water. Its always amusing when people talk about this supposed veil of secrecy that Bush et al have cast over the government…as ‘secret’ after ‘secret’ comes out right there in the popular press. What’s funny about it ? They are supposed to be secret, therefore Bush fails to keep them secret. It’s a form of failure, and failure is what Bush does; that and greed and cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/53 "2005-12-07T14:42:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That would be a rather silly assumption IMHO…especially considering its the US involved. We keep secrets like a sieve keeps water. Its always amusing when people talk about this supposed veil of secrecy that Bush et al have cast over the government…as ‘secret’ after ‘secret’ comes out right there in the popular press.-XT So, your argument is, they can’t be secret prisons because despite all the evidence that they were kept secret, Bush should’ve know they wouldn’t be able to keep them secret, therefore they’re not secret, or therefore they don’t exist, or what? I don’t think I’ve had enough of that kool-aid you’re drinking, I’m all confoozled. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/54 "2005-12-08T03:56:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Interesting. How would you feel about that if it were true? > -XT I already think it’s true, so i’m already pissed. By the way, I’ve heard soeone making an excellent argument : C. Rice stated that the USA has respected the sovereignty of its allies (and she let them free to disclose informations if they believe they should). Respecting their sovereignty means that if torture, transport of detainees, etc… took place, the governements of involved countries were informed about it and gave their agreement. If it’s true, then these governments are accomplices. If it’s false, then, where are the official protests and denegations about this statement? Also : either the european governments weren’t informed and were treated like irrelevant shit, or they were informed and are going to be very pissed about the numerous leaks. In both cases, the situation is likely to result in a major collapse in the confidence european countries could have in the USA. Apart from that, I’ve seen a footage of alleged victims of torture. Judging by the large marks on their bodies, if it’s actually the result of torture endured in US jails, it doesn’t look like “torture light”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239/55 "2005-12-09T14:19:42Z")
Update: John Bellinger, the State Department’s top legal adviser, has publicly admitted, for the first time, that the Red Cross does not have access to all detainees in U.S. custody – [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4512192.stm:](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4512192.stm:) > [@](#): > > Mr Bellinger made the admission in Geneva. > > He stated that the group International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) had access to “absolutely everybody” at the prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which holds suspects detained during the US war on terror. > > When asked by journalists if the organisation had access to everybody held in similar circumstances elsewhere, he said: “No”. He declined to explain further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-u-s-maintaining-secret-prisons-in-eastern-europe/333239.md?page=2)