# Is the United Nations good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2002, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288 "2002-09-06T14:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/81 "2002-09-12T03:25:22Z")
> [@](#): > > If I said “white race should be destroyed”, as a Harvard Professor Noel Ignatiev recently did, that would be racism. Only if taken completely out of its context. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/82 "2002-09-12T15:06:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by PLDennison:_ > **that there is a legitimate case to be argued…that a great proportion of Palestinian culture does in fact support the actions of the terrorists.** Okay, do it. Prove to me that a great proportion of Palestinian culture supports terrorism. And, do it without using either Arafat’s mouthpieces or biased Israeli cites. You ask, "What proportion of Palestinians would have to support terrorism before you feel it would be fair to say, “The Palestinians do X?” Well, you tell me–how many Americans would have to support a war on Iraq before you feel it would be fair to say, “The Americans support a war on Iraq”? Answer–the majority of them. Therefore, I would have to have it proved to me that the majority of Palestinians support Al Aqsa and Hamas and their terrorism agendas before I would stop carefully distinguishing between “Palestinians” and “Palestinian terrorists”. I guess that’s 51%. So–cite? You could start by showing me that Arafat consistently has a greater than 51% approval rating. [http://web1.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/586/re61.htm](http://web1.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/586/re61.htm) > [@](#): > > Al-Ahram Weekly Online > 16 - 22 May 2002 > Issue No.586 > > Palestinians everywhere, whether in the West Bank or Gaza, are sharply critical of the deals that Palestinian President Yasser Arafat made in securing the lifting of the siege on his compound in Ramallah – the muqataa – and the church in Bethlehem. On the former, a Jerusalemite stated, “He is free to leave his headquarters but we are still imprisoned and blockaded in our cities and towns. He should have negotiated freedom of movement for us before he secured liberty for himself.” The latter is seen as a betrayal of the men who fought the occupying Israeli army. Arafat’s approval rating, which soared to 75-80 per cent during his ordeal his headquarters, has begun to falter and fall towards its pre-crisis level of 23-25 per cent. In support of my thesis, in addition to the thousands of Palestinians I already mentioned that the Israeli government evidently doesn’t have any problem with giving work permits to, I offer the following. There’s Sari Nusseibeh. Does he support terrorism? [http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2001/oct/011018.nusseibeh.html](http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2001/oct/011018.nusseibeh.html) > [@](#): > > A Voice of Moderation > College President Sari Nusseibeh Enters Middle East Political Fray > > Oct. 18, 2001 – Sari Nusseibeh, president of Al Quds University in Jerusalem, has long been considered one of the leading intellectuals among Palestinians, and one of the most impassioned advocates for a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Israel and the occupied territories. > > He was recently appointed by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat to be the top Palestinian politician in Jerusalem. In that post, Nusseibeh hopes that he can inject a spirit of moderation and dialogue into a tattered peace process. > > Nusseibeh has critics and fans among both Palestinians and Jews because he has been equally critical of both sides for escalating the violence in the Middle East. His speeches rail against the atmosphere of retribution and hatred that he says perpetuates the war - mostly at the expense of Palestinians. He also called the current Palestinian uprising a “convulsion” and not a revolt. [http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/03/aq032002.html](http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/03/aq032002.html) > [@](#): > > Title: Sari Nusaybah Urges Palestinians To Pursue Nonviolent Conflict > Resolution > > Document Number: FBIS-NES-2002-0320 > Document Date: 20 Mar 2002 > Source: Jerusalem Al-Quds in Arabic 20 Mar 02 p 13 > AFS Number: GMP20020320000198 > > Subslug: Commentary by Sari and Lucy Nusaybah: “More Effective Force” > > [FBIS Translated Text] “More Effective Force” is a new six-part TV > series. It shows that nonviolent political struggle has constituted one > of the most effective and inventive forms of change in the 20th century. > Local Palestinian TV stations will begin showing this series on 21 March. How about the rest of the faculty at Al Quds, and the college kids studying dentistry? Do they all cheer every time another suicide bomber blows up a Jerusalem cafe and kills a few more Jews? [http://www.alquds.edu/faculties/](http://www.alquds.edu/faculties/) Do the kids at the music school in Ramallah want to be suicide bombers? How would their teachers feel about that? How about their parents? [http://beta.kpix.com/news/ap/APTV/National/a/i/Palestinians-Barenboi-ai.html](http://beta.kpix.com/news/ap/APTV/National/a/i/Palestinians-Barenboi-ai.html) > [@](#): > > Daniel Barenboim holds much-delayed master class for Palestinian youths in Ramallah > Tuesday September 10, 2002 > By JAMIE TARABAY > Associated Press Writer > > RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) Jubilant Palestinian teen-agers greeted pianist Daniel Barenboim on Tuesday before he sat down and played Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata at a master class for young musicians in the West Bank. > > The event, attended by some 100 students in Ramallah, came nearly six months after the Israeli army refused to grant Barenboim permission for a visit. This time, Barenboim simply ignored the Israeli travel ban and entered the West Bank under German diplomatic escort. > > Boys and girls dressed in their school uniforms of blue-and-white striped shirts applauded Barenboim, an Argentine-born Jew and Israeli citizen, as he entered a hall at the Friends School. Barenboim’s a Jew, and an Israeli citizen. Why would Jew-hating Palestinian terrorists allow him to come near their children, let alone teach them? What about members of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society? Do they serve coffee and donuts to celebrate when Hamas claims credit for another bombing? [http://www.palestinercs.org/](http://www.palestinercs.org/) > [@](#): > > Our Mission: Humanitarian, Health & Social Services What about all the members of the Palestinian Non-Governmental Organizations network? Are all these people supporting terrorists? Are all the people down at the Society for Deaf Children cheering in sign language when they turn on the TV and see bodies being scraped off the sidewalk in Jerusalem? [http://www.pngo.net/](http://www.pngo.net/) > [@](#): > > The PNGO Network was established in September 1993, as a quick response to the signing of the Oslo Agreements with an objective to enhance coordination, consultation, and cooperation between member organizations working in different developmental domains. The main domains of work are: Coordination and networking, capacity-building, community-outreach, and public education. Throughout the past eight years, PNGO organized a wide numbers of activities in these fields of work. [http://www.pngo.net/members.html](http://www.pngo.net/members.html) > [@](#): > > Addameer > Al Haq > ARIJ Applied Research Institute > Arab Thought Forum Centre > Atfaluna Society For Deaf Children > Ashtar for Theatre Production & Training > Bisan (Center for Research and Development) > Culture and Free Thought Association > Defence for Children International > Democracy and Workers’ Rights Center > Early childhood Resource Centre > El - Wafa Elderly Nursing Home > First Ramallah Group > Gaza Community Mental Health Program > Health, Development, Information and Policy Institute > Jerusalem Media and Communication Centre > LAW - The Palestinian Center for the Protection of Human Rights & the Environment > MA’AN Development Center > Mashru’ Al-Ri’ayya Society - Project Loving Care > Muwatin > Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of Inte… > Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees > Palestinian Center for Human Rights > Palestinian Centre for Peace and Democracy > Palestinian Hydrology Group > Palestinian Red Crescent Society > Palestinian Working Woman Society > Panorama > PASSIA > Popular Arts Centre > Rawdat Al-Zuhur Society > Sakakini Cultural Center > Science And Cultural Center > Tamer Institute > Teacher Creativity (TCC) > The Educational Network Center > The Palestinian Counseling Center > The Union of Health Care Committees > The Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC) > Thought and Culture Center > Women’s Affairs Center / Gaza > Women’s Studies Centre > Women’s Centre for Legal Aid and Counseling > YWCA > Al Mezan Center for Human Rights > Miftah - The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy Oh, yeah, the YWCA in Ramallah, it’s a real hotbed of terrorism, especially that kindergarten they’re running in the Jalazon refugee camp… :rolleyes: This is a lot of people we’re talking about here. Now, if you can show me that any of these groups are just a front for Hamas or Al Aqsa or Arafat, as always I welcome enlightenment. But until you can show me otherwise, I will continue to believe that these people are the “silent majority” I’m talking about, the ones who are just trying to get on with their lives and who privately wish that all the thugs would go away, and that the thugs are in the minority, and that therefore it’s important to continue to distinguish between the “normal people” and the “thugs”. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/83 "2002-09-12T16:17:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **You went too far, IMHO, when you wrote, "Judging an entire group by the actions of a few members of that group is called “bigotry”.** You’re right, I did go too far. “Judging an entire group by the actions of a few members of that group” is technically not “bigotry”–it’s “prejudice”. “Bigotry” is only “the obstinate or intolerant holding to one’s opinions and prejudices”. So the act of “judging” itself wouldn’t make you a bigot–it’s the act of holding to the prejudices that resulted from your “judging” that would make you a bigot. My mistake. > **[Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary](https://www.merriam-webster.com/)** > > The dictionary by Merriam-Webster is America's most trusted online dictionary for English word definitions, meanings, and pronunciation. #wordsmatter > [@](#): > > Main Entry: big·ot·ry > Date: circa 1674 > 1 : the state of mind of a bigot > 2 : acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot > > Main Entry: big·ot > Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot > Date: 1661 > : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices > > Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice > Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment – more at JUDICIAL > Date: 13th century > 1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one’s rights; especially : detriment to one’s legal rights or claims > 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics > synonym see PREDILECTION > [@](#): > > \*\*the question is, when is it appropriate to blame an entire group for the acts of some of its members? \*\* It’s only appropriate to blame the entire group if the things that some of its members did were done in fulfillment of the agenda of the larger group. It’s appropriate to blame Earth First for a member’s act of putting spikes in a tree that made a chainsaw buck back and injure a logger, because this is the sort of thing that’s on Earth First’s agenda. It’s appropriate to blame the Red Brigades for the actions of those members who blew up a Parliament member’s car, since blowing up cars is on the Red Brigade’s agenda. It’s not appropriate to blame the Democratic Party for the Watergate burglary, since burglary isn’t on the Democratic Party’s agenda. It’s not appropriate to blame the Chicago Police Department for the actions of cops who took bribes, because taking bribes is not on the CPD’s agenda. It’s not appropriate to blame the entire group of Palestinians for the actions of those members who are currently sending suicide bombers against Jews, because sending suicide bombers against Jews is not on the Palestinians’ agenda. If you believe it is, then give me a cite that proves it. !!! **OKAY NOW I’M REALLY PISSED!!!** Give me cites for **all** of the following, toot suite, or this discussion is over. > [@](#): > > \*\*They have passed numerous resolutions at the request of this thug \*\*“At the request” of Arafat? Prove that. (We’re back to the “Arabs run the UN” conspiracy theory, I see.) :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\*the UN has been giving this thug large sums of money, knowing full well that he steals much of it and uses some of it to pay for terrorism. \*\*Prove that he steals it. Prove that he uses it to pay for terrorism. Prove that the UN knows this. Your basic premise that started this discussion was “the UN is unfair to Israel, specifically in regard to its resolutions.” I’ve been asking you for days now for a list of all the pro-Palestinian UN resolutions that you feel were unfairly favorable to the Palestinians, and all the anti-Israel UN resolutions that you feel were unfairly censuring of Israel, and you have consistently refused to do so, preferring instead to bring up totally irrelevant matters, from Zionism to white supremacy to lynch mobs to the My Lai massacre to Zimbabwe. Anybody else, upon my first request for a list of the offending resolutions, would have simply said, “Oh, sure, here they are,” and provided some links and a quick rundown on exactly how he felt they were unfair. Then we could have discussed it. But no, you prefer to carry on with your anti-Palestinian, anti-UN blatherings, as you faithfully repeat all the glurge from the anti-UN, anti-Palestinian websites. Put up or shut up. And I’m not even going to touch your “Arabs run the whole UN” conspiracy theory until we finish dealing with UN resolutions (if we ever do), but just so you’ll know, there’s a limit to the amount of time I’m willing to spend talking to conspiracy theorists. Especially if they refuse to even _attempt_ to provide cites. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/84 "2002-09-12T17:22:34Z")
Uh, DDG, the part of my quote that you rather conveniently took out and replaced with ellipses said, “not that I completely agree with it.” I’m not going to go to the trouble to provide support for an argument I don’t completely agree with, unless you think there’s a compelling reason why I should. That said, perhaps the “silent majority” needs to be less silent. Or perhaps they aren’t a majority. I 'm sure I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/85 "2002-09-12T19:08:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \*“Judging an entire group by the actions of a few members of that group” is technically not “bigotry”–it’s “prejudice”. No, it’s neither. It’s simply the use of a collective noun. To say, “the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor,” is a correct historical statement. However, to assume that every single every single Japanese citizen approved of the attack would be prejudice. YMMV > [@](#): > > It’s not appropriate to blame the entire group of Palestinians for the actions of those members who are currently sending suicide bombers against Jews, because sending suicide bombers against Jews is not on the Palestinians’ agenda. If you believe it is, then give me a cite that proves it. OK. > [@](#): > > Some US 26 million for the victims of the Intifada The Saudi government has offered a financial aid of US 26 million to the families of the victims of the Palestinian Intifada in the occupied Palestinian territories. > Saudi Arabia-Palestine, Politics, 12/5/2000 [http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Weekly/Palestine/20001204.html](http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Weekly/Palestine/20001204.html) Since a Saudi Arabian publication calls it a “Palestinian Intifada,” why shouldn’t we do the same? > [@](#): > > Give me cites for **all** of the following, toot suite, or this discussion is over. > \*\*“At the request” of Arafat? That was implied in the cites I provided. > [@](#): > > \*\*Prove that he steals it. It was widely reported recently that Arafat had stolen over $1 billion. We discussed it on a thread here, as well. > [@](#): > > Prove that he uses it to pay for terrorism. AFAIK his money comes from the UN and the EU. > [@](#): > > Prove that the UN knows this. If they don’t, they’re totally negligent. > [@](#): > > Your basic premise that started this discussion was “the UN is unfair to Israel, specifically in regard to its resolutions.” You have put words in quotation marks that I never said. Newspapers fire reporters for that. In fact, my basic premise was that the UN has been unfair to Israel. I’ve provided quite a bit of evidence. The amount of additional evidence available is huge. However I’m losing interest, particularly as you seem to ignore each bit of evidence I bring up, and you never provide any evidence the other way… > [@](#): > > I’ve been asking you for days now for a list of all the pro-Palestinian UN resolutions that you feel were unfairly favorable to the Palestinians, and all the anti-Israel UN resolutions that you feel were unfairly censuring of Israel, and you have consistently refused to do so You have stated a different premise than I did and now you’re telling me how I must make my case. Here’s an alternative idea. I’ve provided substantial evidence of my POV. It’s your turn. Please provide some evidence that the UN has not been biased against Israel. > [@](#): > > Anybody else, upon my first request for a list of the offending resolutions, would have simply said, “Oh, sure, here they are,” and provided some links and a quick rundown on exactly how he felt they were unfair. cite? 😛 Seriously, the amount of unfair and unbalanced UN actions against Israel is so large that it would take a book. You are asking for too much. You want a book that doesn’t exist, **UN Anti-Israel Prejudice for Dummies[sup]TM[/sup]** ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/86 "2002-09-12T20:38:17Z")
\<\< enters thread \>\> \<\< checks preceding post for requested lists of UN resolutions \>\> \<\< finds none \>\> \<\< checks preceding post for requested cites \>\> \<\< finds none \>\> \<\< leaves \>\> ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/87 "2002-09-12T21:16:21Z")
\<\< cursing the hamsters, puts head back into thread just long enough to point out that the fact that some Saudis may have referred to it as a “Palestinian” intifada does not count as a cite proving that the entire group of Palestinian people have as their communal and mass agenda the sending of suicide bombers against Jews \>\> \<\< leaves \>\> ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288/88 "2002-09-12T22:28:55Z")
Ms./Mr. Goose – you are asking for too much. We spent a number of posts debating the propriety of addressing “Palestinian” conduct – whether it was racist or bigoted or prejudiced. You laid down circumstance that would satisfy you that the label could legitimately be used. That’s your standard. You say I have not satisfied your standard, and I agree. We now know that a Saudi Arabian periodical has their standard. Why isn’t their standard at least as valid as yours? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-nations-good/127288.md?page=4)