# Is the United States a police state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964 "2012-12-13T21:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/21 "2012-12-14T01:38:02Z")
No, of course not. The United States doesn’t have _a_ police force; it has many, many police forces, at various levels. The amount of power they have, they amount of corruption they are infected with, the amount of good and/or evil they do, the degree to which they serve and protect the common, law-abiding citizens—these are things that I am sure vary from one group of police to another. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/22 "2012-12-14T02:17:13Z")
I guess that’s where folks like the Slashdot and Agitator readers and commenters differ - they see stories like the one in my OP as part of a web of evidence that the police _as a national institution_ are generally corrupt, power-mad, and unaccountable. They read about story after story of dog-shootings, excessive use of force, and civil liberty violations, all without major consequence to anyone involved, and see that as the norm. But then, I guess their political inclinations would certainly lead them in that direction, no matter what the truth (whatever that is) is. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/23 "2012-12-14T03:14:21Z")
No, not even close. A real police state has an authoritarian/military government where the military and police are free to do what they want w/o consequences. Also severe human rights abuses, no legal protections, no accountability, no civil rights, no balance of powers, tons of corruption, etc. We don’t have any of that. We have surveillance and law enforcement can be a magnet for overaggressive badge heavy assholes (but that is a problem everywhere). But we aren’t a police state. The military isn’t even allowed to involve itself in civilian affairs because the country was founded on a desire to not have the military take over the country. I don’t see how someone could say we are and be serious when real police states are out there. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/24 "2012-12-14T03:20:10Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Those of libertarian bent (like those [who comment on Slashdot articles](http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/12/13/1510259/new-hampshire-cops-use-taser-on-woman-buying-too-many-iphones)) think so. Heck, even here there are many who say that the default reaction to the police should be terror and hatred. > > What do you think of the current state of things in the U.S.? Feel free to connect with my other thread on the [National Counterterrorism Center](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675454) if ya like. Slashdot [has a thread on that too.](http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/12/13/1737240/nctc-gets-vast-powers-to-spy-on-us-citizens) In that video the police asked her to leave and she refused. The fact that the cops only used force after non-compliance (ask:tell:make), and the only force they used was pinning her down and tasering her (not beating her within an inch of her life as would happen in a real police state) and the fact that she will have a day in court all point to it not being a police state. Also she had $16,000 in her purse when she was arrested. The police didn’t steal it like they would in a police state (although you can stay they steal money from drug dealers and users). ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/25 "2012-12-14T03:56:31Z")
No, though we do have significant problems with both our police force and criminal justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/26 "2012-12-14T04:40:02Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Those of libertarian bent … think so. It’s not just a libertarian idea. The suggestion that the US is a police state was a frequent refrain in the Occupy movement. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/27 "2012-12-14T07:25:59Z")
No a police state would designate an agency to search all of its citizens before they could travel by a certain mode of transport. Certain agencies in a police state might spy on its citizens without a warrant. If they were discovered to be aiding the enemy, the police state would detain them indefinitely without due process instead of prosecuting them with evidence of their crimes. If incarceration was too troublesome they would assassinate them without providing any evidence of their wrongdoing to the public. When asked questions about the assassination of its citizens, executives would refuse to answer because secrecy is more sacred than the rule of law in a police state. Criminal office holders who illegally had men tortured would never be prosecuted in a police state. Those types of nations have no respect for the rule of law. In all seriousness though, the police aren’t the problem per se. It’s the legislation that gives them the power to enforce entirely too many laws. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/28 "2012-12-14T07:34:07Z")
No. The government is not using the police to suppress political opposition. Nor are the police running rampant without any checks on their power. So the United States is not a police state unless you stretch the definition to “a state that has police in it”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/29 "2012-12-14T07:47:13Z")
I’m not happy with a number of US laws and how the Justice department operates, but claiming the US is “a police state” is grossly insulting to people who actually have lived in police states. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/30 "2012-12-14T07:49:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s not just a libertarian idea. The suggestion that the US is a police state was a frequent refrain in the Occupy movement. The Occupy movement is actually pretty strong proof that the US isn’t a police state. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/31 "2012-12-14T13:31:27Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > From the Slashdot commentary, it’s apparently “a state of affairs in which the police are generally corrupt/self-serving, and can do anything to citizens they want without consequence or recourse.” No. What happened, did somebody get busted for drunk driving? ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/32 "2012-12-14T15:37:18Z")
By comparison to some real police states, we have a positively benign and highly effective law enforcement system. By comparison. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/33 "2012-12-14T15:49:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Define “police state”. [Police State\*:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state) > [@](#): > > A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive. > > The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[3] > > As the maintenance of a standing police force became common in the late 19th and early 20th century, the term “police state” came to be used more commonly to refer only to when a police force was used “too” strenuously, in a “rigid and repressive” way, as under fascism, crony capitalism, and in retroactive application to oppressive/repressive historic incidents like the French Revolution and the Roman Empire.[4][5] - Which, come to think of it, is an etymologically redundant phrase, if you consider where the word “police” comes from. (Hint: Same root as “politician.”) ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/34 "2012-12-14T16:01:05Z")
Not only is the US not a police state, but the folks who call it one are actually counterproductive to their presumed goal of limiting police power. Hyperbole is a wonderful rhetorical device, but it is often abused by those who overestimate it’s effectiveness in attacking the object of their derision (in most cases because they have no real power to affect a situation other than words). The problem is that when you go to this length most folks just laugh it off and ignore the entire argument regarding police power. IMO there are institutionalized abuses of police power–the police abuse of tasers, for example, really cries out for official review. But we’re never going to get that if libertarian yahoos insist on citing the slightest offense to their notions of freedom as evidence of a police state. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/35 "2012-12-14T16:18:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re seriously not equating the number of prisoners in US prisons as evidence of a police state are you? > > Remember, they all get/had their day in court. That doesn’t mean that they’re actually guilty, or that they actually should be in prison. However, I agree that the fact that they did have their day in court pretty much establishes that we’re not in a police state. I mean, our criminal justice system is messy, but it’s not a bunch of kangaroo courts. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/36 "2012-12-14T16:28:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That doesn’t mean that they’re actually guilty, or that they actually should be in prison. However, I agree that the fact that they did have their day in court pretty much establishes that we’re not in a police state. I mean, our criminal justice system is messy, but it’s not a bunch of kangaroo courts. +1. Even a kangaroo court is a step up from the countries where people just get disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/37 "2012-12-14T16:30:14Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Even a kangaroo court is a step up from the countries where people just get disappeared. Well, let’s not be naive. People [do just get disappeared by US authorities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar). What separates us is that at least some of them are later un-disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/38 "2012-12-14T16:59:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > No. > > What happened, did somebody get busted for drunk driving? Woman got tasered for trying to buy iPhones (severely biased version). OP, first link. And to be fair, as I said, it’s not just that; it’s the steady, constant drumbeat of police power abuses that never get punished that probably made the commenters on that thread declare “police state.” ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/39 "2012-12-14T17:12:19Z")
Not be excessively snarky, but the vast majority of slashdot posters suffer from the delusion that expertise (and often just an imagined expertise) in one area extends to expertise across all others. Also, Dunning-Kruger. I was also keeping up on those posts in response to the woman tasered for the iPhones. The actual situation indicated nothing like a police state. And reading the comments also made it clear most posters never bothered to do much more than read the (biased) summary, rather than actually learn any details of the actual case. Most of them just need to RTFA. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964/40 "2012-12-14T17:15:54Z")
Yeah, the Agitator (and other blogs of that ilk) is probably a better example, as it reports (depressingly) regularly on police abuses of power. THERE is a blog where a little depression/hyperbole is probably more justified (though obviously good policing rarely gets reported there - though it does happen). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-a-police-state/643964.md?page=3)