# Is the United States Declaration of Independence a leagal document? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530 "2009-01-22T22:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/21 "2009-01-23T20:38:50Z")
As an experiment some people were read passages from the Declaration without being told what it was. They were certain it came from a communist country. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/22 "2009-01-23T22:29:47Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Because the Fifth Amendment only applies to Persons. Neither dogs, nor cows nor human sperm cells have the right to life and liberty. For a long, long, long time, the law has held that Personhood (and rights appending thereto) does not begin until birth. > > Which is basically the same reason that murder laws aren’t a barrier to an otherwise legal abortion and why miscarriages don’t require Death Certificates: no Person has died. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your analysis, but is that just your own view, or have some courts actually ruled that way as to the Fifth Amendment and abortion? I’m not snarking; I’m just curious. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/23 "2009-01-24T08:06:47Z")
It is both a legal document and a political document. It gives reasons for declaring independence, which are political in nature, and it has the legal effect of severing ties with Great Britain and declaring the new government. President Lincoln, arguing that states could not secede argued that the Declaration of Independence was one in a series of legal acts establishing a legal framework for the new nation, there being charters given to colonies originally, legislatures in those colonies which eventually sent delegates to the Continental Congress etc. President Lincoln’s July 4, 1961 Message to Congress in Special Session: > [@](#): > > "The Union, and not themselves separately, procured their > independence, and their liberty. By conquest, or purchase, the Union > gave each of them, whatever of independence, and liberty, it has. The > Union is older than any of the States; and, in fact, it created them > as States. Originally, some dependent colonies made the Union; and, in > turn, _**the Union threw off their old dependence, for them, and made > them States, such as they are.**_ Not one of them ever had a State > constitution, independent of the Union. Of course, it is not forgotten > that all the new States framed their constitutions, before they > entered the Union; nevertheless, dependent upon, and preparatory to, > coming into the Union. " I have added the emphasis. Here is an interesting yet understandable site about TDOI: [Global Industry Market Sizing - NationMaster](http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/United-States-Declaration-of-Independence) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/24 "2009-01-24T10:02:04Z")
Is the United States Declaration of Independence a legal document? Totally and highly illegal. Just ask the British. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/25 "2009-01-24T15:26:48Z")
> [@RetroVertigo](#): > > one member committed himself to the fact that the United States Declaration of Independence gives the right to life. Total bullshit. As stated above, the Declaration, while it may color the interpretation of laws, has no legal force, with one important exception: it is the authority for the proposition that the United States is a separate and independent nation from Great Britain. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution provides that “life, liberty, and property” may not be taken away without due process, and that is enforceable law. That’s never been held to be a barrier to an otherwise legal abortion, however. Two reasons: people getting abortions aren’t state actors. The Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments apply only to governments, not people. Secondly, as noted, fetuses aren’t persons. That’s true in a scientific sense, of course, but it’s obviously also true in a legal sense, because if they were, we’d prosecute women who get abortions and the doctors who perform them as murderers, and we don’t. Q.E.D. The law could change, but there’s no other way to read the law as it currently stands. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/26 "2009-01-24T17:20:40Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Is the United States Declaration of Independence a legal document? > > Totally and highly illegal. Just ask the British. At the time, yes — but ever since the 1783 Treaty of Paris, in which Britain formally conceded our independence, the point is probably moot. > [@Cliffy](#): > > … the Declaration, while it may color the interpretation of laws, has no legal force, with one important exception: it is the authority for the proposition that the United States is a separate and independent nation from Great Britain. If the Declaration had never been written, but everything else had proceeded the same way (winning the war and signing the Treaty), then I’m pretty sure we’d be considered a separate and independent nation from Great Britain, both here and on the other side of the Atlantic. I don’t know if the Mexicans ever bothered to write a declaration of independence from Spain, but in any case, both parties signed the Treaty of Cordoba in 1821, which made it a fact anyway from that point on. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/27 "2009-01-25T18:29:34Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > If the Declaration had never been written, but everything else had proceeded the same way (winning the war and signing the Treaty), then I’m pretty sure we’d be considered a separate and independent nation from Great Britain, both here and on the other side of the Atlantic. Yes, that’s true. If things were different, then things would be different. But the way things actually happened, the Declaration is the legal document which severed the U.S.'s relationship with the Empire. Had the U.S. then gone on the lose the Revolution, then the Declaration wouldn’t have that legal force, but we won. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/28 "2009-01-25T22:53:55Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Yes, that’s true. If things were different, then things would be different. But the way things actually happened, the Declaration is the legal document which severed the U.S.'s relationship with the Empire. Had the U.S. then gone on the lose the Revolution, then the Declaration wouldn’t have that legal force, but we won. > > –Cliffy I don’t think the DoI had any legal significance at the time. Many of the Convention members considered the May 15th vote accept John Adams’ proposal to be the “real” declaration of intent (which is why a relatively unknown Jefferson was chosen to write what became the most important document of the revolution.) The DoI was as much a page of propaganda as a legal document, intended to rally sentiment around revolution. Only after the successful rebellion and ratification of the Constitution did the DoI start to gain in importance. Jefferson’s poetic and soaring words had much to do with it, but also the new Americans were looking for a specific date to celebrate their independence and the signing of the DoI was the easiest. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/29 "2009-01-26T00:11:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yes, _Lincoln at Gettysburg_ is a great book (and deservedly won the Pulitzer Prize). The author’s name is Garry Wills, though. You are absolutely right. I have the book before me as I post. I’d also recommend Wills’ _Under God_. And yes, you can’t tell the players without a score card you and You can’t find the book without the right spelling of the author’s name and the correct name of the book. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530/30 "2009-01-26T01:55:20Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > I don’t know if the Mexicans ever bothered to write a declaration of independence from Spain, but in any case, both parties signed the Treaty of Cordoba in 1821, which made it a fact anyway from that point on. [Declaration of Independence of Northern America, 1813](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solemn_Act_of_the_Declaration_of_Independence_of_Northern_America) However, _Mexico_ formally declared independence in September 1821, one month _after_ the Treaty of Cordoba. AFAIK, the US Declaration of Independence has been mentioned as evidence of the Founders’ intent in legal opinions, like the Federalist Papers. I would not consider that as evidence that it is a “legal document”, though, like an actual opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-declaration-of-independence-a-leagal-document/482530.md?page=1)