# Is the United States "liberal" or "conservative"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994 "2003-11-08T00:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/1 "2003-11-08T00:06:28Z")
Both Republicans and Democrats, both liberal and conservative, think that the majority of the nation is behind them. The conservatives point to [polls like this](http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-republican-gains-glance,0,3848726.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines) and claim that the nation is behind them. Liberals point to key issues dear to them where majorities seem to agree with them, like the environment, and claim that means that the nation is behind THEM. So which is it, do you think? Do polls matter? What’s the best way to determine something like this? Is it even possible? Does recent history, like 9/11, have anything to do with it? Are liberals being shunned by the nation at large, with their influence in a death spiral, as conservatives on the blogs I peruse say? Are conservatives seen as the radical nutjobs they are, with an energized base below the surface, as some liberals argue? And even if the nation were generally liberal or conservative, what would that mean, exactly, for political issues? In other words, if we were to have a nationwide referendum on controversial issues that split along ideological lines (the environment, abortion, gay rights, etc.), would the results track with the “general political bent” of the country? Or would there be major surprises? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/2 "2003-11-08T00:12:06Z")
As an outsider, from my POV America comes across as very conservative. But what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/3 "2003-11-08T00:19:07Z")
By worldwide standards, we’re staggeringly conservative. No other industrialized nation lacks a national health plan! By our own standards, we are, of course, a mixed bag, more liberal on some subjects, more conservative on others, averaging out at (by definition!) the average! Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/4 "2003-11-08T00:21:27Z")
Is it true that ‘socialist’ is a political slur in the US? Then by comparison with Europe, the US is conservative. (I would assume that the Bible Belt, with its fundamentalist religious types was further evidence that the US is far to the right of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/5 "2003-11-08T00:23:42Z")
I like to think that the majority of my fellow citizens are actually like me…somewhere in the middle. IMO, the loud obnoxious ones on the left and the right are a small but vocal minority, with the rest of the citizens somewhere around the middle. I think that on specific issues, people tend to lean one way or the other, sometimes conservative on certain issues, sometimes liberal on others. They generally pick a party that addresses what they feel are the key issues, but most people are fairly dissatisfied with their party on ALL issues. I know a lot of republicans who cringe when ever the GOP does its religious schtick, and a lot of democrats that feel that their parties fiscal policies really suck. Lobsang > [@](#): > > As an outsider, from my POV America comes across as very conservative. But what do I know. Actually this is an excellent point…from who’s perspective are we to judge? From our own, from Europes, from ‘the worlds’? Certainly from a European perspective, America is conservative. Probably from ‘the worlds’ too, though I guess from a totalitarian countries perspective we are liberal enough. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/6 "2003-11-08T00:25:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > Is it true that ‘socialist’ is a political slur in the US? It’s a slur when said by someone else. If you proclaim yourself a socialist, it’s poltical death. I do not exagerate. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/7 "2003-11-08T00:28:21Z")
**Is it true that ‘socialist’ is a political slur in the US?** Well, depending on who you ask, being called a socialist is about as bad as being called a Red. Anyone calls ME a socialist and we will have to step outside … ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/8 "2003-11-08T00:33:13Z")
The US has more in common, politically, with Saudi Arabia and South Africa’s Apartheid regime than with the more “enlightened” countries of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/9 "2003-11-08T00:33:52Z")
I don’t follow the Greens too much, but do even they ever call themselves Socialist in the US? I seem to remember Camejo, in the CA recall election, emphasizing that he was a strong believer in the free market. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/10 "2003-11-08T00:37:50Z")
From lissener > [@](#): > > The US has more in common, politically, with Saudi Arabia and South Africa’s Apartheid regime than with the more “enlightened” countries of Europe. Too funny. I always forget who our heridatary ruler is…whats his name again? I can see the vast similarities between the US and Saudi…its certainly obvious. 😛 Whats the similarities between the US and South Africa during their Apartheid regime?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/11 "2003-11-08T00:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*The US has more in common, politically, with Saudi Arabia and South Africa’s Apartheid regime than with the more “enlightened” countries of Europe. \*\* You’re right! In the US monarchy, women are not allowed to drive or travel without their husdand’s consent. All Blacks live in Bantustans somewhere outside Tulsa and no white person is allowed to have a Black boss. Alcohol is forbiden, and Christianity is the only religion allowed (preferably the fundamental, homophobic kind). Dang, why did I never notice that before? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/12 "2003-11-08T01:15:42Z")
Posted by **John Mace:** > [@](#): > > I don’t follow the Greens too much, but do even they ever call themselves Socialist in the US? I seem to remember Camejo, in the CA recall election, emphasizing that he was a strong believer in the free market. Well, it’s a bit complicated. Actually, there are two Green parties in the U.S. From [http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm:](http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm:) > [@](#): > > Green Party of the United States (Green Party) [http://www.gp.org/](http://www.gp.org/) - The Green Party – the informal US-affiliate of the left-wing, environmentalist European Greens movement – scored a major achievement when it convinced prominent consumer advocate Ralph Nader to run as their first Presidential nominee in 1996. Spending just over $5,000, Nader was on the ballot in 22 states and carried over 700,000 votes (4th place - 0.8%). In 2000, Nader raised millions of dollars, mobilized leftist activists and grabbed national headlines with his anti-corporate campaign message. Nader ignored pleas from liberal Democrats that he abandon the race because he was siphoning essential votes away from Al Gore’s campaign – answering that Gore was not substantially different than Bush and that his own campaign was about building a permanent third party. In the end, Nader was on the ballot in 44 states and finished third with 2,878,000 votes (2.7%) – seemingly depriving Gore of wins in some key states. More significantly, Nader missed the important 5% mark for the national vote, meaning that the party will still be ineligible for federal matching funds in 2004 (Note: a third Nader run is still possible as he said “I haven’t ruled out going in 2004” in February 2002). Until 2001, the Greens are largely a collection of fairly autonomous state/local based political entities with only a weak (and sometimes splintered) national leadership structure that largely served to coordinate electoral activities. This faction – formerly named the Association of State Green Parties (ASGP) – is the larger and more moderate of the two unrelated Green parties. The ASGP voted in 2001 to convert from an umbrella coordinating organization into a formal and unified national party organization. . . . Strong local Green Parties exist – with ballot status – in a handful of states. The Green Party Platform 2000 sets forth the party’s official views. The Green Alliance is an officially sanctioned, national network of Green Party political clubs. > > The Greens/Green Party USA (G/GPUSA) [http://www.greenparty.org/](http://www.greenparty.org/) - The G/GPUSA is the older, smaller and more stridently leftist of the two Green parties. While the GPUSA also nominated Nader for President in 2000, Nader rejected the G/GPUSA nomination and embraced the other Green party. Prominent Nader campaign strategist Jim Hightower described the two Green factions as follows in 2001: “There are two Green party organizations – the [Green Party of the US] whose nomination Ralph accepted and the much smaller one [G/GPUSA] … on the fringes … [with] all sorts of damned-near-communistic ideas.” Some in the G/GPUSA protested that Hightower’s comments were a bit unfair – but read the G/GPUSA 2000 Platform and decide for yourself. While the Green Party and the rival G/GPUSA appear to be very similar – they advocate tactical (and some ideological) differences and somewhat compete with claims to the titular leadership of the national Green movement. The G/GPUSA largely emphasizes direct action tactics over traditional electoral politics. A majorty of the G/GPUSA delegates voted that the party’s 2001 convention to merge into the Green Party of the US – but the motion ultimately failed for lack of the required 2/3 majority. That outcome prompted many of the G/GPUSA activists to independently jump to the Green Party of the US – forming a new leftist caucus within the Green Party of the US – and leaving the G/GPUSA as a sizably diminished and more dogmatically Marxist party. But you’ll have to search both websites carefully to find any mention of the “s-word”; I’ve never seen it used. Nor is it used on the site of the Labor Party ([http://www.thelaborparty.org/](http://www.thelaborparty.org/)). It is pretty much avoided except by political groups who are self-identified socialists to begin with. Bernie Sanders of Vermont, the only independent (non-Dem, non-Rep) in Congress, is often described as “the only socialist in Congress” but I’ve never heard that he applies the word to himself. Check out his political party, the Progressive Party of Vermont ([http://www.progressiveparty.org/](http://www.progressiveparty.org/)) and decide for yourself. As for the OP: In his new book, _Dude, Where’s My Country?_ (Warner Books, 2003), Michael Moore devotes all of Chapter 9, “A Liberal Paradise,” to proving that the American people are actually a lot more sympathetic to the left than the right. I haven’t checked his cites, but he has a lot of them, in the chapter text and in his “Notes and Sources” section at the back. Specific allegations: 1. “Fifty-seven percent of the American public believes that abortion should be legal in all or most cases.” 2. “A whopping 86 percent of the American public say they ‘_agree_ with the goals of the Civil Rights movement.’ Four out of five Americans say ‘it is important for colleges to have racially diverse student bodies.’” 3. “Eighty-three percent of Americans say they are in agreement with the goals of the environmental movement.” 4. “Ninety-four percent of Americans want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of all handguns – and 86 percent want this even if it makes guns more expensive!” 5. “Eight in ten Americans believe that health insurance should be provided to everyone equally in this country.” 6. “Sixty-two percent of the people you share this country with support changing current laws so that _fewer_ nonviolent offenders are sent to prison.” 7. “Eighty-five percent of Americans support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians.” 8. “According to a 2002 Gallup Poll, 58 percent thought labor unions were a good idea.” If this be socialism, make the most of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/13 "2003-11-08T01:28:48Z")
Tony Blair, Seemingly well liked amongst even many conservatives in America (correct me if I am wrong) Openly calls himslelf a socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/14 "2003-11-08T01:41:11Z")
Not so, **Lobsang**. Blair is not and probably never has been a socialist. He avoids the S word at all costs. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Is it true that ‘socialist’ is a political slur in the US? > > Then by comparison with Europe, the US is conservative.\*\* This is misleading. ‘Socialist’ is political death in Europe, too. Nominally left-of-centre, social democrat parties get elected, but actual socialists? Forget it. ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/15 "2003-11-08T02:02:51Z")
Of course, \*\* BrainGlutton \*\*, how much do you wanna bet that Michael Moore is being completely unbiased in all of his cites and claims? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/16 "2003-11-08T02:05:23Z")
Not only is “socialist” a slur, but so is “liberal”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/17 "2003-11-08T02:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > BG wrote: > Bernie Sanders of Vermont, the only independent (non-Dem, non-Rep) in Congress, is often described as “the only socialist in Congress” but I’ve never heard that he applies the word to himself. He was also once the mayor of Burlington, and was often called “the only Socialist mayor in the US”. But as you say, I’ve never seen him identify himself thusly, although [his own web page lists books about him with titles calling him a Socialist:](http://bernie.house.gov/research/bernie_biography.asp) > [@](#): > > Other books that describe his political career as Mayor of Burlington, Vermont and candidate for Congress are: People’s Republic: Vermont and the Sanders Revolution by Greg Guma, 1989; Challenging the Boundaries of Reform: Socialism in Burlington by W.J. Conroy, 1990; Socialist Mayor: Bernard Sanders in Burlington, Vermont by Steven Soifer, 1991; Making History in Vermont: The Election of a Socialist to Congress by Steven Rosenfeld, 1992. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/18 "2003-11-08T02:19:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > ]Not only is “socialist” a slur, but so is “liberal”. Good point, and that’s an interesting indicator. While it’s not uncommon for citizens to call themselves “liberal”, you rarely hear politicians describe themselves as one. Whereas it’s not at all unheard of that a Republican politician will refer to himself/herself as a conservative. Although I’m not sure if a presidential candidate would do that-- hence the **Compasionate** Conservatism of Bush II. Did Reagn self identify as a conservative in his campaign speaches? I don’t recall. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/19 "2003-11-08T02:28:13Z")
Posted by **DreadCthulhu:** > [@](#): > > Of course, BrainGlutton , how much do you wanna bet that Michael Moore is being completely unbiased in all of his cites and claims? Of course Michael Moore makes no more pretense than Rush Limbaugh does of being unbiased. And many conservatives, in right-wing magazines and in this forum, have accused him of misrepresenting some facts in his movie _Bowling for Columbine._ But, as I said, in this book Moore does provide cites for his poll stats – too many to list here. If you want to call him a liar, you’ll have to check his book out of the library (I won’t even suggest you give him any of your money) and go over them yourself. Chapter 9. **Guinastasia,** you are living on Bizarro-Earth if you think “liberal” has become a slur in the U.S. But I will admit, a lot of left-liberals now much prefer the term “progressive.” I don’t know why, maybe because it just sounds cool and implies a commitment to social progress. And because it provides them (us, I should say) with a label for a political position which isn’t exactly socialism but does stand much farther to the left than ordinary “liberalism,” a word which nowadays sounds rather, well, wimpy. I have a slight problem with it because the word “progressive” already has a place in American political history and in that place it means something entirely different – the early-20th-century Progressives, a rather puritanical, upper-middle-class-based movement which was committed to the ideas that politics should be void of ideology or class interests; that government should be purely professional and technocratic; and that the logrolling and dealmaking of politics-as-usual is fundamentally corrupt and should be bypassed, wherever possible, by use of the public referendum, initiative, and recall. California has a remarkably “Progressive” constitution in this sense – which is why their governor was subject to recall, and why the new governor is expected to balance the state budget even though he is not allowed to touch the bulk of its financial commitments, which the voters approved in various referenda. “Progressives” in the old sense survive now only in one wing of the former Reform Party (Pat Buchanan represented the other wing of Reform – conservative nativist-isolationist populists), and in some groups that have emerged from Reform’s breakup, such as Jesse Ventura’s Independence Party. But they don’t call themselves “Progressives,” so I guess us there’s nothing really wrong with we left-liberals appropriating the word. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/20 "2003-11-08T02:29:21Z")
By the way, the old Progressives got their name from their commitment to a progressive income tax. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994.md?page=2)