# Is the United States "liberal" or "conservative"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994 "2003-11-08T00:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/21 "2003-11-08T02:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Usram \* > \*\*Not so, **Lobsang**. Blair is not and probably never has been a socialist. He avoids the S word at all costs. \*\* I watched him say it. It was in an interview with David Frost. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/22 "2003-11-08T02:48:26Z")
> [@](#): > > BG wrote: > Guinastasia, you are living on Bizarro-Earth if you think “liberal” has become a slur in the U.S. Hey, **Guin**. Meet you down at the Bizarro-Pub for a few beers tonight. Apparently we live in the same neighborhood.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/23 "2003-11-08T03:07:42Z")
“Liberal” and “conservative” are rather inadequate terms. If we take personal liberties as an example, we are for the most part rather liberal - the most glaring exception being authorities attitudes toward “soft-drugs”. Sometimes personal liberties give us the right to be rather illiberal at times. For instance, some European nations severly restrict certain “neo-Nazi” activity. In the United States the KKK or Neo-Nazis can demonstrate openly. But on the whole we probably have no more or less neo-Nazi activity than the European countries that have much tighter restrictions. So which country is more “liberal”, the government which gives people the right to say things that are very unliberal, or the government which tries harder to stiffle activity which at its heart is against the very values that liberal democracy promotes. Economically, the United States is more vigorously capitalist than most countries in Europe, but probably similar to the East Asian “Tigers”. We can argue about whether this is more consistent with “liberal” or “conservative” values all day. We are economically liberal in the sense that private ownership is relatively less regulated, but we are conservative in that we tend to have far fewer public benefits. Someone asked if “socialism” is a dirty word here. Actually the bigger dirty word in American politics is “welfare”. Anything that smacks of wealth redistribution is firmly rejected here. I think in the social arena, the United States is far more divided than most other Western Countries. It is far harder to build consensus on a social issue within the United States than say the Netherlands or Japan. I think the two coasts are as liberal as any European or English speaking society, but of course the South or Midwest, as a rule, is much more conservative. But I am sure as well what goes in Paris, London, or Berlin may not be as accepted in the ‘hinterlands’ either. Perhaps due to our electoral college and legislative structure - and the fact that we resist the sort of centralization that most countries have, we give more voice to our more rural and traditional areas. An American President must carry a lot of more rural and conservative states to win office, while I think A German chancelor or British Prime Minister can draw support exclusively from the larger urban areas and still win a parliamentary majority. Anyway Western Europe, Canada, and Australia are not the world. We are definitely in the “liberal” camp on a global basis, and within the Western World, we are probably the most difficult to easily classify. We definitely do have the largest “conservative” bloc of voters or any major Western democracy, but we also usually in the vanguard of most “liberal” movements as well. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/24 "2003-11-08T03:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Hey, **Guin**. Meet you down at the Bizarro-Pub for a few beers tonight. Apparently we live in the same neighborhood.🙂 \*\* Make mine a rum and coke and you’re on. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/25 "2003-11-08T03:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Make mine a rum and coke and you’re on. 😛 \*\* No prob! Actually, I really like the fact that **Brian** seems not so aware of how on the fringe his politics are. Makes him one of the few intelligent posters here who isn’t also cynical! ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/26 "2003-11-08T18:38:29Z")
Speaking as a Brit, it seems very conservative. The anti-Communist feeling being so strong, the amount of Americans on the net who talk about liberals negatively and appear shocked at sex on telly, the lack of a national health service, the whole family values thing, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/27 "2003-11-08T19:51:05Z")
On many issues, the U.S. is far more ‘liberal’ than many other countries. For example, consider hate-speech laws and other restrictions on speech. Many countries take it for granted that the state can impose fairly strict limits on speech. Canada has hate-speech laws, Canadian content rules, and other limits on free expression. Some countries have limits on political speech as well, and some parties are banned. Censorship of books and magazines is often far more restrictive in Europe and Canada than in the U.S. Many countries still overtly support a mixing of religion and government. In Canada, Catholic schools get public funding. The connection is even more overt in many European countries. So, whether the U.S. is more ‘liberal’ than other countries really depends on what you’re measuring. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/28 "2003-11-08T20:09:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Not only is “socialist” a slur, but so is “liberal”. \*\* Out of intrest, why are they slurs? What is bad about being a liberal and/or a socialist in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/29 "2003-11-08T20:12:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Usram \* > \*\*Not so, **Lobsang**. Blair is not and probably never has been a socialist. He avoids the S word at all costs. \*\* ``` Blair went to the International Socialist... so he considers himself a socialist even thou most members at the meeting thought his lapdog alliance with the US merits his "expulsion". ``` I see very frequently the Red America vs Blue America expressions… that pretty well sums it up. Split in half between liberals and conservatives. Politics: Conservative leaning Military: Conservative Laws: I’d risk Liberal Freedom of Press: Liberal Actual Press: Conservative leaning. Culture: Mostly liberal without scaring conservatives Economics: Somewhat liberal… with conservative setbacks Education: Liberal when not religious. Religion: CONSERVATIVE Academia: Liberal mostly ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/30 "2003-11-08T20:14:18Z")
**Lobsang** -in MY opinion? Absolutely nothing at all! In fact, I AM a liberal and a mild socialist to boot! However, it seems that others disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/31 "2003-11-08T20:25:08Z")
Either that was a quick reply or I am more hung-over than I feel. Sorry Guin I thought you were saying it as if it were a slur in your opinion. You’re all right. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/32 "2003-11-08T21:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > The US has more in common, politically, with Saudi Arabia and South Africa’s Apartheid regime than with the more “enlightened” countries of Europe. \*\* I believe other posters have already pointed out how asanine this comment is. Perhaps you would like to back up your assertion? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lobsang \* > Out of intrest, why are they slurs? > > What is bad about being a liberal and/or a socialist in your opinion? \*\* Liberals are largely characterised as smug, whiny, overly intellectual weakling busybodies. Typical archtypes would be the hippy, the young righteously angry loner, the brooding intellectual, the freak-o. This is not to say that there aren’t right-wing characteritures as well (the meathead jock, the fat corupt businessman). The difference is that we are a nation that values strength and hard work. Liberals often conjure images of weakness or avoidance of responsibility - the draft dodger, the wellfare recipient, soft attitudes on crime. By definition, a liberal often threatens traditional values - ie someone who is into football or other contact sports is not “tough” or “rugged” or “strong”, they are overcompensating for some shortcoming. A person who fights for their country is not “brave” or “patriotic” (a term rarely used as anything other than a slur by liberals), they are “sheep” or “mindless”. Anyhow, most Americans are “moderate”. We go to work, have a few drinks with our friends, raise our families, try and get laid. The same thing everyone else does. It’s just the 2 % on either side of the specrum that everyone hears about. You go anyplace in the country, you will find a mix of all kinds of people. One of the nice things about America is that people have the freedom to believe whatever they want. What yhey forget is everyone else has that same right to disagree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/33 "2003-11-08T21:22:00Z")
Not that I am arguing but if that is what people think of liberals then it is no wonder America is so conservative. To me, liberals are people who care about environmental issues. They believe that a person’s fault(s) should be understood, not punished. They prefer change (for the better) over tradition. They are forgivers, tolerators, kind, generous, and a lot of other good qualities that are hard to put into words. Conservatives come across as uncaring, greedy, old-fashioned, tough. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/34 "2003-11-08T21:29:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Usram \* > \*\*Not so, **Lobsang**. Blair is not and probably never has been a socialist. He avoids the S word at all costs. > This is misleading. ‘Socialist’ is political death in Europe, too. Nominally left-of-centre, social democrat parties get elected, but actual socialists? Forget it. \*\* Depends on the country. One of the two main french political party is the socialist party, and there’s no issue with being called “socialist”, which is understood as “moderate left”. Depnds on what you’re putting behind the word. Actually, “communist” isn’t a slur, either… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/35 "2003-11-08T21:33:56Z")
From msmith537 > [@](#): > > Anyhow, most Americans are “moderate”. We go to work, have a few drinks with our friends, raise our families, try and get laid. The same thing everyone else does. It’s just the 2 % on either side of the specrum that everyone hears about. You go anyplace in the country, you will find a mix of all kinds of people. I think you nailed it right there, msmith537. Whats funny to me is, people who think ‘liberal’ is a slur…but then when you start talking politics with them, you find out that they are more in agreement with the ‘liberal’ side of certain issues than the conservative side. I think that the label ‘liberal’ got a bad rap from the '60’s on, and now its just that…a lable. From Lobsang > [@](#): > > Not that I am arguing but if that is what people think of liberals then it is no wonder America is so conservative. > > To me, liberals are people who care about environmental issues. They believe that a person’s fault(s) should be understood, not punished. They prefer change (for the better) over tradition. They are forgivers, tolerators, kind, generous, and a lot of other good qualities that are hard to put into words. > > Conservatives come across as uncaring, greedy, old-fashioned, tough. Woofa, talk about lables. America is ‘so conservative’ compared to what? Again, I’d say the vast majority of my fellow countrymen/women are NOT conservative…NOR liberal. They are somewhere in the middle leaning this way and that depending on the issue being discussed. ‘Liberal’ as a lable got a bad rap, but a lot of people in this country that decry ‘those damn liberals’ in fact sympathize a lot with them (unknowingly) on specific issues. In addition, some folks that consider themselves ‘liberal’ or decry ‘those damn conservatives’ actually (unknowingly again) agree with THEM on certain issues. Isn’t it a wonderful country? lol, even WE don’t understand ourselves! Its not surprising that the rest of the world is scratching their head trying to figure us out…or trying (unsuccessfully) to pigion hole us here or there. Now, could someone PLEASE tell me who our heridatary ruler is? I have to go forth and segragate minorities later and I really need to know. Oh shit…I’m one of the minorities! Well, don’t tell anyone please… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/36 "2003-11-08T21:45:55Z")
From msmith537 > [@](#): > > Anyhow, most Americans are “moderate”. We go to work, have a few drinks with our friends, raise our families, try and get laid. The same thing everyone else does. It’s just the 2 % on either side of the specrum that everyone hears about. You go anyplace in the country, you will find a mix of all kinds of people. I think you nailed it right there, msmith537. Whats funny to me is, people who think ‘liberal’ is a slur…but then when you start talking politics with them, you find out that they are more in agreement with the ‘liberal’ side of certain issues than the conservative side. I think that the label ‘liberal’ got a bad rap from the '60’s on, and now its just that…a lable. From Lobsang > [@](#): > > Not that I am arguing but if that is what people think of liberals then it is no wonder America is so conservative. > > To me, liberals are people who care about environmental issues. They believe that a person’s fault(s) should be understood, not punished. They prefer change (for the better) over tradition. They are forgivers, tolerators, kind, generous, and a lot of other good qualities that are hard to put into words. > > Conservatives come across as uncaring, greedy, old-fashioned, tough. Woofa, talk about lables. America is ‘so conservative’ compared to what? Again, I’d say the vast majority of my fellow countrymen/women are NOT conservative…NOR liberal. They are somewhere in the middle leaning this way and that depending on the issue being discussed. ‘Liberal’ as a lable got a bad rap, but a lot of people in this country that decry ‘those damn liberals’ in fact sympathize a lot with them (unknowingly) on specific issues. In addition, some folks that consider themselves ‘liberal’ or decry ‘those damn conservatives’ actually (unknowingly again) agree with THEM on certain issues. Isn’t it a wonderful country? lol, even WE don’t understand ourselves! Its not surprising that the rest of the world is scratching their head trying to figure us out…or trying (unsuccessfully) to pigion hole us here or there. Now, could someone PLEASE tell me who our heridatary ruler is? I have to go forth and segragate minorities later and I really need to know. Oh shit…I’m one of the minorities! Well, don’t tell anyone please… -XT ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/37 "2003-11-08T21:59:49Z")
**lobsang** > [@](#): > > To me, liberals are people who care about environmental issues. They believe that a person’s fault(s) should be understood, not punished. They prefer change (for the better) over tradition. They are forgivers, tolerators, kind, generous, and a lot of other good qualities that are hard to put into words. > > Conservatives come across as uncaring, greedy, old-fashioned, tough. Y’know, I hear quite a few liberals in America summarize the difference between themselves and conservatives in similarly condescending, patronizing terms. Frankly, it comes off sounding like “We liberals are smarter, better people than you unwashed riffraff.” I suspect the perception of liberal snobbery and elitism is one of the main reasons why “normal” America (as msmith described it) seem to be leaning “right” these days. I know that I perceive a liberal/leftist superiority complex and it completely turns me off, and I consider myself receptive to both sides of the political spectrum for different issues (IOW, I’m a moderate, the guy both parties are trying to woo). ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/38 "2003-11-08T22:19:09Z")
If they sound condescending/patronizing then I apologise, but I really do see liberals as carers and not as "smug, whiny, overly intellectual weakling busybodies. " If anything they put themselves as equals to others and not ‘superior’. I consider myself left-leaning because when I look at the world and at the habits/ideals of the political sides, the left seems to make more sense, and be a better side to be on. I am naturally left I think. Not that I know much about politics, but I have seen enough to choose a side. ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/39 "2003-11-08T23:05:38Z")
No need to apologize, **Lobsang**. That’s how you feel, and that’s fine. I’m just saying quite a few “independents” or “moderates” (as they are understood in America) read comments like yours and it reaffirms their opinion of liberal/left condescension and snobbery. The OP asked the question "Is the United States “liberal” or “conservative”? and I maintain one of the reasons (obviously not the only one) it appears to have shifted right (if you want to go by the results of the 2002 election and the result of the CA recall) is because of the perception of liberal/left elitism. To me, it seems like the “great middle” of the country (you know, the people who actually decide elections) want a trustworthy, solid, loyal opposition to the Bush administration, but sure aren’t seeing it in the Democrats. To quite a few, the one word that describes liberals and leftists - and the politicians who emerge from these philosophies- is _effete_, and _effete_ just doesn’t play well to the American masses. Attention, Democrats and loyal liberals - shed the elitist lefties in your party the same way the Republicans shed the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson wing of their party after Clinton cleaned the Pubbies’ clocks in 92 and 96. We moderates are begging you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994/40 "2003-11-08T23:16:33Z")
From GoHeels > [@](#): > > Attention, Democrats and loyal liberals - shed the elitist lefties in your party the same way the Republicans shed the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson wing of their party after Clinton cleaned the Pubbies’ clocks in 92 and 96. > > We moderates are begging you. Here here!! Want to win? Want ‘our’ vote? Then wake up guys. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-liberal-or-conservative/211994.md?page=3)