# Is the United States the "best" or "freest" country in the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 14, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046 "2004-05-14T01:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![encom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3da27b/32.png) [@encom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/encom)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/1 "2004-05-14T01:43:18Z")
The longer version of this question that would not fit in the “Title” window was this: **When Americans call the United States the “best” or “freest” country in the world, what standard(s) are they using to judge these qualities?** Is there a website or book somewhere (I’ve searched, though not exhaustively) that lists data we could use to compare “freedom” or other abstracts like “quality of life”? What data could we possibly use to compare such things? Some ideas off the top of my head: [ul] [li]infant mortality rates[/li][li]percentage of population imprisoned[/li][li]crime rate[/li][li]number of freedoms recognized or guaranteed in law and/or founding documents[/li][li]average income[/li][li]tax burden?[/li][li]number of government bureaucracies?[/li][li]number of consenting acts prosecuted as victimless crimes?[/li][/ul] I figure that people who throw around terms like “best” and “freest” ought to be able to quantify or even qualify their statements. Best and freest by what standard? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/2 "2004-05-14T01:58:43Z")
Probably wrong forum. The usual standard is the old “it’s what we’re used to” argument, with no more objectivity than any other personal experience. But from what I have seen (although all my personal observations are several decades old) I would not wish to live anywhere else. Apologies in advance to everyone who would not trade their home for anyplace else. De gustibus… ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/3 "2004-05-14T02:04:50Z")
[United Nations Human Development Report](http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2003/indicator/indic_1_1_1.html) (click “back” for all indicators included) Top 10: Norway Iceland Sweden Australia Netherlands Belgium United States Canada Japan Switzerland Bottom 10: Guinea-Bissau Democratic Rep. of the Congo Central African Republic Ethiopia Mozambique Burundi Mali Burkina Faso Niger Sierra Leone ---
**Author:** ![encom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3da27b/32.png) [@encom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/encom)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/4 "2004-05-14T02:06:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Probably wrong forum. Yeah, I thought that might be the case, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t really want to debate whether or not the United States is The Greatest (that’s definitely a GQ, isn’t it?), but just wonder aloud about _what standards_ we would use to answer such a question. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/5 "2004-05-14T02:22:26Z")
Australia could be nice. They have funny zoos. Probably a great place to live if you aren’t an Aborigine. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/6 "2004-05-14T02:46:01Z")
> [@encom](#): > > Yeah, I thought that might be the case, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t really want to debate whether or not the United States is The Greatest (that’s definitely a GQ, isn’t it?), but just wonder aloud about _what standards_ we would use to answer such a question. > [@encom](#): > > Yeah, I thought that might be the case, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t really want to debate whether or not the United States is The Greatest (that’s definitely a GQ, isn’t it?), but just wonder aloud about _what standards_ we would use to answer such a question. If the question is whether the US is the _best_ country in the world, there are probably no objective standards implicit in the statement. “Best” is simply the superlative of “good”, and what is “good” is the ultimate example of a value judgment which people make subejctively. Furthermore, while “good” can refer to any quality or characteristic, it must refer to _some_ quality or characteristic. Devoid of context or qualification, “the United States is the best country” is as meaningless as, say, “Alpha Centauri B is the best star” or “mountain ash is the best kind of tree”. Best at what? Best for what? If the question is whether the US is the _freeest_ country in the world, at least we’re a little closer to a shared understanding of what comparison we’re making. But we could still be talking about different kinds of freedom. Freedom from interference by government? Freedom from social conventions and restraints? Sexual freedom or freedom of speech? Freedom from the constraints imposed by hunger, poverty, ignorance? Freedom from taxation? Freedom from crime? Freedom from prejudice? So “free” is a fairly flexible concept as well. You could probably arrive at standards for the purposes of a discussion, but I don’t think you’re going to have a useful discussion unless you explicitly agree the standards beforehand. Without that, “the freeest country in the world” is a slogan, not an assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/7 "2004-05-14T02:58:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Australia could be nice. They have funny zoos. Probably a great place to live if you aren’t an Aborigine. It is. However, the government intrusions are often worse than in the USA. Of course, ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/8 "2004-05-14T04:05:06Z")
When Americans say their country is the best, it isn’t a slight against anyone else; we honestly expect that a German would repond with “No, Germany is better,” and we’d have a good-natured debate about it. It’s like a man saying his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. Only an insecure fool would get upset and take it as an insult to his own wife or point out that the speaker’s wife is in fact homely. As to “freest,” if we’re talking about social, religious, political and (especially) economic freedom, it’s certainly among the leaders, even if not #1. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/9 "2004-05-14T05:33:01Z")
It’s an easy place to make high $, own a gun, and have broad protections from the government. Certain sporting issues would make me prefer Mexico due to it’s lack Petards and humaniacs and all the screwed up laws catering to the pathetic nutcases. But only if I was somewhat wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Mbossa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Mbossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mbossa)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/10 "2004-05-14T05:47:40Z")
I think **furt** has the right idea. People who say the US is the “best” country are rarely (I’d personally say never) basing this observation on any objective measurements. Often, an implicit sense patriotism is the reason, even if the person isn’t explicitly patriotic. The US is probably the best country for people who share the US’s values. However, they often hold these values because they were brought up in the US. I was brought up in New Zealand, and I can honestly say I’d much rather live here than in the US. Basically, it all comes down to that wonderful abbrieviation, “YMMV”. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/11 "2004-05-14T10:53:39Z")
> [@furt](#): > > When Americans say their country is the best, it isn’t a slight against anyone else; we honestly expect that a German would repond with “No, Germany is better,” and we’d have a good-natured debate about it. You’d be surprised. I’ve had conversations where an American has found it inconceivable that other nationalities might not acknowledge US superiority. Not in an nasty or gloating way, Americans are usually very polite :). But just under the impression that everyone would chose to live in the USA if given the choice and were being completely honest about it. I think it’s something that’s drummed into all citizens of some countries, so some can’t accept it’s totally subjective. What’s best depends on your personal values and what you chose to measure. By many definitions the USA is right up there, but that doesn’t necessarily make it ‘best’. I could list other, not-so-good, measurements, but I don’t want to turn this thread into a country-bashing rant. 🙂 This truely is “IMHO” material. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Really](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce7236/32.png) [@Noone\_Really](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Really)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/12 "2004-05-14T12:31:02Z")
Definitely not number 1 for economic freedom, ranks only 10th in this study: [http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.html](http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/13 "2004-05-14T12:41:17Z")
I think _moral_ freedoms are quite significant; i.e. government intervention in issues of personal choice/behaviour that are effectively _ethically_ neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/14 "2004-05-14T14:04:42Z")
Many of the people i talk to include in the definition of best things like most scientific/engineering achievements, strongest military. Since the US has 2x the population of the second most populus developed country (Japan) naturally the US will have more of these things. So it depends. Does ‘best’ include abilities that are population dependent (military & science developments) or is best determined on a per capita basis or on factors taht don’t include population (like civil liberties)? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-united-states-the-best-or-freest-country-in-the-world/245046/15 "2004-05-14T14:09:05Z")
I think the factual question has been answered as well as it can be, so I’ll close this thread. The people who say the USA is best are generally not using any quantifiable data to reach that conclusion, and each person has his own reasons for believing it. If the question is reworded, a new thread on this topic can be started in either IMHO or GD, depending on what direction you want the thread to take. bibliophage moderator GQ