# Is the universe old or young? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2022, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334 "2022-04-23T22:17:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/121 "2022-04-30T19:26:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why do you think that for the first 13.6 billion years, there was nothing, and then all of a sudden in the last .1 all these civs came up at once? Well, I mean, we do actually have evidence of one example of intelligent life taking that long to develop. It’s kind of hard to argue that our timing is unique, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/122 "2022-04-30T19:30:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If other civs were out there stellarforming, putting up dyson spheres, and lifting the materials out of the stars, we would see that, for sure. Wait, is our hypothetical human suicide-colonization squad putting up dyson spheres? Is that even remotely possible for humans to actually construct? I thought that was science fiction dressed up in science, like traveling through wormholes. > [@Mijin](#): > > For example, let’s say we discover a massive helical structure, radiating a complex pattern of gamma waves. We’d absolutely consider this potential evidence of ETs even while having no clue whatsoever of what such a structure is for. Is that something our hypothetical human civilization could actually make? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/123 "2022-04-30T19:31:33Z")
What’s wrong with Dyson spheres? Any spacefaring civilization can put some solar panels in orbit around their star. The more you build, the easier it is to build more. Build enough, and you have a Dyson sphere. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/124 "2022-04-30T19:32:35Z")
Okay, when you put it that way, that does sound quite doable and smart. We would detect that here on earth? EDIT: Wait, shouldn’t we be doing that now with our own sun? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/125 "2022-04-30T19:34:16Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I really don’t see humans doing one-way expansion. That’s not really our bag. When we discover new worlds, the point is to connect them to our existing world, to make the world bigger. That’s what I think of as the human drive. Well, alien civilisations are not guaranteed to think like humans. They might be immortal organisms or collections of organisms (like bacteria or slime molds or ant-hives) or they might be robots. By the time we are ready to build interstellar craft, humans might have built (effectively immortal) robots, or engineered themselves for extended lifespans, or developed some form of homeostasis or cryostasis that allows the time to pass quickly. None of this would solve the lightspeed communication problem, though, which I think would be quite a barrier (especially on a galactic scale). Would it be a deal-breaker, however? For every conceivable species, for every conceivable psychological mind-type? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/126 "2022-04-30T19:34:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They would have had to detect us long enough ago through radio noise to have an expedition heading in our direction, or else heading here by random chance. And even if we are detected it will be a long time until they get here, and unless the mission includes aliens and is not just a machine then it may be a long time until the aliens find out about us back on their home world. What makes you think that they would send a mission specifically to our solar system with the objective of contacting us? Wouldn’t it make a whole lot more sense for them to send out lots of probes, excavators, or colonies all over? > [@EllisDee](#): > > Without a solution to the light speed problem, there is no point. Why not? > [@EllisDee](#): > > I really don’t see humans doing one-way expansion. That’s not really our bag. When we discover new worlds, the point is to connect them to our existing world, to make the world bigger. That’s what I think of as the human drive. That’s assuming, of course, that all of humanity is in on this decision, and we all act in homogeneity. If a particular self sustaining asteroid colony chooses to nudge itself off, they aren’t doing a one way expansion, they are just expanding. And there is also the other possibility that we all stay home, and send out self replicating excavators to bring the universe to _us_. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Sending an ark 4 light years away (the closest!) means writing off everyone and everything on the ark, and for those on the ark, writing off everyone and everything back home. Forever. I don’t think it’s in the human psyche to do something like that. Probably not, and no one has suggested that anything of the sort would happen. > [@EllisDee](#): > > It’s kind of hard to argue that our timing is unique, isn’t it? Are you making an argument that this is a unique time in which intelligent life can develop? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/127 "2022-04-30T19:36:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you making an argument that this is a unique time in which intelligent life can develop? Are you making an argument that we can’t possibly be first? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/128 "2022-04-30T19:39:57Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Wait, is our hypothetical human suicide-colonization squad putting up dyson spheres? Is that even remotely possible for humans to actually construct? Not sure why you chose to use the word suicide in there, it certainly does not belong, but yes, there is nothing to stop us from putting up solar collectors around a star until it is completely blocked off. > [@EllisDee](#): > > I thought that was science fiction dressed up in science, like traveling through wormholes. Well, I’m not sure what to tell you, but you thought wrong. We have put up satellites into space, right? Is there anything keeping us from putting up more? > [@EllisDee](#): > > Okay, when you put it that way, that does sound quite doable and smart. We would detect that here on earth? We would see the infrared light that is put out by them, sure. At this point, we’ve done enough sky survey that if there were any significant number of them, we’d have detected them by now. I’ll point to Tabby’s star, which is 1470 light years away. It looked kinda weird, and in fact, looked a bit like what the beginnings of a dyson sphere would look like. As we looked closer, we determined that it most likely was not, but it does demonstrate that we _would_ be able to detect one 1500 light years away. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Wait, shouldn’t we be doing that now with our own sun? We are, slowly. Every solar powered satellite is an addition towards that final structure. We’ll probably need to develop asteroid mining before we can really get it rolling though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/129 "2022-04-30T19:40:30Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Are you making an argument that we can’t possibly be first? No, my position is that we _are_ first. If we were not first, then we would see whoever was. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/130 "2022-04-30T19:40:56Z")
Enough with the fisking. I clearly already addressed some of those points. With that, the fun is gone. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/131 "2022-04-30T19:43:39Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I clearly already addressed some of those points. While I was replying to those points, so not really fair to take me to task in a fast moving thread like this. And I addressed some that you hadn’t. > [@EllisDee](#): > > With that, the fun is gone. I’m out. Fair enough, this is supposed to be a lighthearted speculative conversation, if you are taking it too seriously or it upsets you, then it rather defeats the purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/132 "2022-04-30T19:46:46Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Aside: Was that just luck? For some reason I seem to think that reptile physiology wouldn’t be able to sustain a large brain. Something about regulating body temperature. Do I have that wrong? Could a cold-blooded creature theoretically have a large brain? Actually, are octopus cold-blooded? Even if that were the case, it was chance that reptiles of the archosaur line took over rather than reptiles of the protomammal line ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/133 "2022-04-30T19:46:47Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > None of this would solve the lightspeed communication problem, though, which I think would be quite a barrier (especially on a galactic scale). Would it be a deal-breaker, however? For every conceivable species, for every conceivable psychological mind-type? I think it would be hard to run an empire that way, but for people to expand and grow out to the fringes of the galaxy and beyond, I don’t think you need an empire. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/134 "2022-04-30T19:47:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, my position is that we _are_ first. If we were not first, then we would see whoever was. Robin Hanson has suggested that we are likely to be the first, because if we were able to see any evidence of alien civilisations in the distance, exploration probes would not be far behind, and they would be likely to arrive in the relatively near future. More details here > **[Grabby Aliens – a simple model by Robin Hanson](https://grabbyaliens.com/)** > > Advanced aliens really are out there, and we have enough data to say roughly where they are in space and time, and when we will see or meet them. I don’t entirely agree with this line of argument, but it is certainly suggestive. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/135 "2022-04-30T19:48:50Z")
Yeah, I saw an interview with him on Fraser Cain’s channel. I didn’t agree with everything, and I didn’t like the term “grabby aliens” even though I don’t really have a better one, but I’d say my thinking is more in line with his than not. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/136 "2022-04-30T19:53:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What makes you think that they would send a mission specifically to our solar system with the objective of contacting us? > > Wouldn’t it make a whole lot more sense for them to send out lots of probes, excavators, or colonies all over? Yes, to what you said. I was trying to say we haven’t seen them because they were unlikely to have detected us and sent anything our way and we would only encounter them randomly. And how many probes would be sent out? It would take considerable resources to make each one. Multiple probes sure, but it’s like buying extra lottery tickets, buy two tickets and double your chance of winning, but it’s still practically no chance at all. I think probes would be sent where they would be believed to find something useful. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/137 "2022-04-30T19:55:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think it would be hard to run an empire that way, but for people to expand and grow out to the fringes of the galaxy and beyond, I don’t think you need an empire. Perhaps not - but without an empire, all you would have is a cohort of potential rivals and enemies. I’ve tried to imagine a civilisation that can exist with no up-to-date security intelligence on what everyone else is doing, but it is challenging. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/138 "2022-04-30T20:01:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And how many probes would be sent out? It would take considerable resources to make each one. That’s the beauty of self replication. You really just need to make one. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Multiple probes sure, but it’s like buying extra lottery tickets, buy two tickets and double your chance of winning, but it’s still practically no chance at all. You are assuming that they are looking for intelligent life to meet. They aren’t, they are looking for resources to exploit, and those are all around. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I think probes would be sent where they would be believed to find something useful. Right, like pretty much anywhere in the galaxy outside of a black hole. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/139 "2022-04-30T20:03:30Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Perhaps not - but without an empire, all you would have is a cohort of potential rivals and enemies. I’ve tried to imagine a civilisation that can exist with no up-to-date security intelligence on what everyone else is doing, but it is challenging. Yeah, and that’s why I find it a possibility that in the future, we will not _allow_ colonists to leave, and instead confine everyone to this patch of space, while we send out automated collectors to bring the universe back to us. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334/140 "2022-04-30T20:06:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > while we send out automated collectors to bring the universe back to us. Is this an attempt to create a supermassive black hole for some reason? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-old-or-young/963334.md?page=8)