# Is the universe real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594 "2005-02-23T22:15:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/21 "2005-02-23T23:23:38Z")
Maybe he assumed that post wasn’t real, John… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/22 "2005-02-23T23:27:00Z")
Every time **Liberal** asks if the universe is real pinch him upon the nose (or ass if you prefer). It is subjectively real, and that is about as good as it gets 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/23 "2005-02-23T23:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > It is subjectively real, and that is about as good as it gets Heh, I can try to make it a little better… if the universe isn’t real, then neither is subjectivity. Thus, if any pro-real argument is dismissed for being subjective, that’s a _de facto_ concession that the universe is, indeed, real! (I love philosophy threads. They leave me thinking for hours. Expect continued intermittent additions from the SPOOFEster.) ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/24 "2005-02-23T23:32:06Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Not real compared to what? That’s the question I wanted to ask too. If the universe is not real, what is? Let’s look at the two definitions: 1. The common definition — “Being or occurring in fact or actuality” (American Heritage) When used to determine whether the universe is real, this definition seems circular. If the universe isn’t real, neither is “fact”, “actuality”, or, for that matter, the American Heritage Dictionary. If we are indeed within a nonreal universe, how can anything ever be determined to be or occur in fact or actuality, and if nothing can, is there any difference between real and nonreal? If we are within a real universe, well, then it’s real. Either way, this definition is of little help. 1. The philosophical definition — “Existing objectively … regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language” (Ibid) This is where it gets tricky. Does the universe exist regardless of observers? I can’t even begin to think of a way to prove or disprove that, except to say that it certainly seems to. I’m reminded of the counterargument to Young Earth Creationism: Either God made the Earth to appear to be billions of years old, and made everything exactly as if it were billions of years old, and made every living thing exactly as if they had evolved during millions of years, and created what looks exactly like a vast system of interlocking processes that have been going on during billions of years… or everything is as it seems. In other words: do we have any reason to believe that the universe didn’t exist until something came along to observe it? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/25 "2005-02-23T23:34:53Z")
Meh…it seems real enough to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/26 "2005-02-23T23:59:45Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > That’s the question I wanted to ask too. If the universe is not real, what is? If I read the OP correctly, he believes that God is real, but the universe is not. Is that correct, **Lib**? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/27 "2005-02-24T00:04:55Z")
If that’s the case, I would love to hear an objective argument that indicates God’s reality over the universe’s. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/28 "2005-02-24T00:13:50Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If I read the OP correctly, he believes that God is real, but the universe is not. I believe this to be the case, and if it is, **Hoodoo Ulove** ’s objection is correct: we cannot discuss the reality of the universe without bringing God into it. > [@SPOOFE](#): > > If that’s the case, I would love to hear an objective argument that indicates God’s reality over the universe’s. Oh dear. _puts on helmet_ ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/29 "2005-02-24T00:18:37Z")
It’s a fair request. I’m having a hard time coming up with an objective argument that my desk _knock knock_ is real. I can’t even detect God with my potentially nonexistent senses. Color me flabbergasted. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/30 "2005-02-24T00:38:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Gotta run. Wife home. Now, _that’s_ real 🙂 It reminds me of the song [“Back to life, back to reality”](http://www.lyricsvault.net/songs/1835.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/31 "2005-02-24T00:42:13Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > It’s a fair request. I’m having a hard time coming up with an objective argument that my desk _knock knock_ is real. I can’t even detect God with my potentially nonexistent senses. Color me flabbergasted. **SentientMeat** ’s summary of the modal ontological proof, which **Lib** accepts as analytical proof of the existence of God: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4599618&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4599618&postcount=6) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/32 "2005-02-24T00:45:36Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > **SentientMeat** ’s summary of the modal ontological proof, which **Lib** accepts as analytical proof of the existence of God: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4599618&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4599618&postcount=6) No!!! Not the modal ontological proof. I’ll tell you anything you want to know. Anything!!! ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/33 "2005-02-24T00:47:42Z")
Ah, I see. Different standard of proof, as far as I can tell. With the cards stacked against it, the universe never really had a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/34 "2005-02-24T00:57:31Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > Ah, I see. Different standard of proof, as far as I can tell. Not really. I don’t accept the proof, for pretty much the same reasons as **SentientMeat** , but it is the same kind of proof that **Lib** is asking for about the universe. > [@](#): > > With the cards stacked against it, the universe never really had a chance. Elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/35 "2005-02-24T01:14:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Not really. I don’t accept the proof, for pretty much the same reasons as SentientMeat, but it is the same kind of proof that Lib is asking for about the universe. A metaphysical argument to explain the physical? Doesn’t sound like it fits, to me. It’s like expounding on the horrors of human suffering to explain why McDonald’s exists. > [@](#): > > Elaborate? The universe, though big, is relatively mundane compared to God. It seems to me that a metaphysical proof would, by definition, not be up to the task of explaining the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/36 "2005-02-24T01:18:51Z")
I’ll save this thread from hi-jacking by not responding, at least not until **Lib** comes back. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/37 "2005-02-24T01:20:44Z")
Fair enough… I’m not even sure why I’m suddenly so fascinated with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/38 "2005-02-24T01:21:37Z")
I believe that the universe, which I believe can be described (although humans have not yet learned how) as one possible branch in an infinitely branching mathematical creation, is precisely as real as the number 4. Nothing else can be more real than that. Nothing real can be less real than that. I’ll expound at greater length if anyone is curious. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/39 "2005-02-24T01:22:36Z")
Go ahead. I have a couple of hours to kill. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594/40 "2005-02-24T01:30:15Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I believe that the universe, which I believe can be described (although humans have not yet learned how) as one possible branch in an infinitely branching mathematical creation, is precisely as real as the number 4. Nothing else can be more real than that. Nothing real can be less real than that. Could be interesting, so please, go for it. Just FYI, I don’t believe in the number 4. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-universe-real/291594.md?page=3)