# Is the US already post Democracy spin-off from Ice Shooting thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 10, 2026, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535 "2026-01-10T15:06:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/61 "2026-01-11T13:01:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Democrats simply failed to recognise the threat to democracy Trump and Co posed. And I fail to see anything in what they are doing that shows they have changed. This is true of the Democratic leadership, most notably Schumer and Jeffries. But there are plenty of Democrats in congress and (most importantly) among the voters who do recognize this threat. I think the leadership will change (and obviously must change). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/62 "2026-01-11T13:09:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the leadership will change (and obviously must change). …I’ll believe it when I see it. I have no confidence in it happening although obviously I hope that it does. And for the record I’m seeing the same where I live. The NZ Labour Party shows signs of following the lead of the UK Labour Party that has embraced austerity/anti-trans policies. Its enough that I’m shifting to another party, we have proportional representation here so a vote for a minority party isn’t a waste. But this is a global thing. And I don’t have much faith that the Democrats will do what they need to do because most of the centre-left parties around the world are doing the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/63 "2026-01-11T13:10:55Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > America is post democracy and we need to stop,acting like it’s not. It’s debatable whether America could ever really be called a democracy in the first place. A country that established itself by ensuring that only white men could vote, and even then didn’t vote directly for President but rather for people who vote for President, and making its upper parliamentary house non-proportional and up for election only every 6 years, is not a fully democratic nation, and contains in it the seeds to drift in either direction (more democratic or more anti-democratic). The pendulum has swung both ways a number of times in history. If you measure it from the passage of the Civil Rights act then we’re on a backswing, and have entered a highly abnormal situation. That’s the frame of reference for most of us. But if you consider that for the majority of American history women couldn’t vote, minorities couldn’t vote, and random armed gangs of white men could drag you out of your house and hang you for race-related reasons, and that gerrymandering and other anti-demiocratic political manipulation was quite common, right now we’re just retreading familiar ground. What I think is different now is that in the past, though white supremacists have always been concerned about losing power, they’ve never been concerned about losing _all_ their power. Right now they’re facing the prospect of permanently being an equal or lesser (non-supreme) voice in the democracy, so they’re trying to dismantle the levers of democracy. Worse, they’ve committed actual crimes in doing so, hence they’re not just facing a loss of political power but the prospect of prison. There’s no guarantee they’ll succeed. But the levers of democracy have proven wholly inadequate to preventing these maniacs from gaining power. Now that they actually have gained power it’s far from clear that democratic process will be adequate to remove them from power. Voting and pressuring your representatives is required, and you should disdain anyone who suggests it’s useless or unnecessary. But at the same time, it’s the bare minimum. Participatory democracy alone will likely not be adequate to tackle this problem. This is a very dangerous moment. Historically we’ve been here before and prevailed, but this outcome can’t be taken for granted. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/64 "2026-01-11T15:17:04Z")
I’ve been watching this guy lately and really like every thing he says. If he leads, I believe I’d follow. > ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/65 "2026-01-11T17:07:32Z")
We can all vote for representatives. We cannot all afford meaningful access to representatives. A lot of this is money, but a lot is numbers: each of my sentators represents nearly forty million people. My complaint about voting above is that I don’t have representation. I can vote for a human, but not one that will actually represent me. Those with millions to spend can. How is that not post democracy? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/66 "2026-01-11T17:09:34Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I can vote for a human, but not one that will actually represent me. Those with millions to spend can. How is that not post democracy? How is that any different from the USA in 1820? Hint: it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/67 "2026-01-11T17:11:33Z")
How is it different? No senator represented forty million people is how. Access was restricted, so it wasn’t fully democratic, but once we gave access to all but then made that access impossible, I’m calling “post.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/68 "2026-01-11T17:15:52Z")
You’re right the number of people per senator or rep are larger today than 150 years ago. But by and large access to senators and reps has always been rationed on the ability to pay. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/69 "2026-01-11T20:52:42Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > . They can be vocal and visible in the House and in the media. Which does little, and yes, in Congress they are vocal, it is just that the media doesnt report much meaningless talk. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > They can’t pass legislation, but they can be an effective opposition. Not really. > [@Babale](#): > > If it’s “obviously short-hand for :: wave hands :: whatever is happening right now” then it’s tautologically true that we are in fact in it right now since we defined “it” as “whatever is happening right now”. I can think of very few claims that are less interesting or less useful than that. > > In order for the claim to mean anything, we need to define what “post Democracy” means and then show that this description actually matches reality, not insist on tautologies. Good points. The elections of 2025 proved the USA is NOT “post democracy”. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And for clarity this was my _actual_ definition, found further down that post: You are not the OP nor are you an American. Since you arent the OP your personal opinion is not what we are debating here. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Democrats are ineffective and even if elected will mostly maintain the status quo rather than push back. Biden pushed back, so this is clearly not true. Newsom just pushed back in a BIG way. > [@Babale](#): > > And so we often see people who are further Left than the Liberal mainstream of the party criticize it because it is not full throatedly Progressive or because it doesn’t support the ideas proposed by DemSocs like Bernie or AOC. And they criticize it as being “controlled opposition” or “pushing the status quo”. This is, of course, nonsense. > > The fact that the Democratic Party (which is composed almost entirely of Liberals, partially of Progressives, and only to the tiniest extent of Democratic Socialists) ends up pushing mostly Liberal ideas, mixed in with some Progressive ones, and with only the slightest nod to the DemSocs, does _not_ mean that we live in a “post-Democracy”. Correct. I dont know if anyone noticed but the Democratic House Leadership just passed a ACA tax credit extension, joined by several of the more sane Republicans. That is being effective. Ture, the Senate may not pass it, but now it has been made clear exactly what party is trying to take away peoples health care. This will come to roost in November 2026. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/70 "2026-01-11T21:54:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think what is getting people upset is that option 3 seems to be in the vast majority: > > 1. Pretend that nothing bad whatsoever is happening, and think it’s all business as usual, and if you ignore the creeping fascism hard enough, it will just go away by itself, or maybe someone will do something about it. How about the people who have been marinating in RWNJ media for years and think the country is being overrun by violent mobs of illegal immigrants, see no difference between Venezuela and past U.S. interventions, and think the poor woman shot in Minneapolis was a provocateur who intentionally tried to run over an ICE officer? (I got to hear all this yesterday from a friend and co-worker who I’ve known for years.) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/71 "2026-01-11T22:30:28Z")
Why on earth would you be friends with someone like that? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/72 "2026-01-11T22:37:35Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Why on earth would you be friends with someone like that? I’ve known him for 18 years now. He wasn’t like that when I first met him. And even now I don’t think he’s a bad or evil person, just woefully ignorant and/or misinformed from what I can tell. I have lots of relatives in Texas who fall into the same boat. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/73 "2026-01-11T23:05:52Z")
He’s in a cult. Some cult members can be de-programmed, but many cannot, and will literally kill themselves or others when commanded by the leader. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/74 "2026-01-11T23:18:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are not the OP nor are you an American. …whoah. Non-Americans aren’t allowed to have opinions now? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Since you arent the OP your personal opinion is not what we are debating here. This was a _split-thread_. “Post-democracy” hasn’t been defined by the OP(who is the OP simply because their post was the one that was split) nor any one else. But I can’t imagine how post-“democracy” would only ever mean “fascist dictatorship.” So I’ve provided my definition for one reason only: to give my responses _context_. Personal opinions are allowed here. Everyone else is debating their personal opinions, why can’t I? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Biden pushed back, so this is clearly not true. Biden isn’t the “Democrats.” But are you talking about [this](https://jacobin.com/2020/02/joe-biden-history-republicans-tax-cuts-barack-obama-yesterdays-man) Biden? And I’m speaking in _broad strokes_ here. “Not pushing back” doesn’t mean _never pushing back_. It means the pushing back that they do would be largely (but not necessarily entirely) ineffective. I’m painting a picture. Not writing a thesis. So of course sometimes Biden “pushed back.” But often that “push back” was largely ineffective. And he was also sometimes lock-stock-in-agreement. And that also depends on how you define “push back”. But you don’t want me to define that as well, do you? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Newsom just pushed back in a BIG way. I just looked up Google News for Newsom and apart from an article titled _“Gavin Newsom on Democrats, 2028 and His Fruit-Only Breakfasts”_ I didn’t see anything particularly newsworthy. Not a particular fan of the guy myself. I couldn’t imagine a fruit-only breakfast. But apparently I’m not American, so I can’t have an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2026, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/75 "2026-01-11T23:44:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Biden isn’t the “Democrats.” But are you talking about [this](https://jacobin.com/2020/02/joe-biden-history-republicans-tax-cuts-barack-obama-yesterdays-man) Biden? Yes, Jacobin indeed falls neatly into this category: > [@Babale](#): > > And so we often see people who are further Left than the Liberal mainstream of the party criticize it because it is not full throatedly Progressive or because it doesn’t support the ideas proposed by DemSocs like Bernie or AOC. And they criticize it as being “controlled opposition” or “pushing the status quo”. This is, of course, nonsense. > > The fact that the Democratic Party (which is composed almost entirely of Liberals, partially of Progressives, and only to the tiniest extent of Democratic Socialists) ends up pushing mostly Liberal ideas, mixed in with some Progressive ones, and with only the slightest nod to the DemSocs, does _not_ mean that we live in a “post-Democracy”. The fact that _Jacobin_ is unhappy with what policies Biden has pushed is not evidence that we are in a post-Democracy era; it is evidence that Biden was not, in fact, a Socialist (despite Fox News’ whining to the contrary). Great! Fantastic! Thanks, Biden! Do you have a _reputable_ source for the opinion that Biden did not “push back” on Republicans? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And I’m speaking in _broad strokes_ here. “Not pushing back” doesn’t mean _never pushing back_. It means the pushing back that they do would be largely (but not necessarily entirely) ineffective. I’m painting a picture. Not writing a thesis. So of course sometimes Biden “pushed back.” But often that “push back” was largely ineffective. And he was also sometimes lock-stock-in-agreement. Biden did a great job of pushing back and even getting real policy pushed through: > **[Biden’s labor report card: Historian gives ‘Union Joe’ a higher grade than...](https://theconversation.com/bidens-labor-report-card-historian-gives-union-joe-a-higher-grade-than-any-president-since-fdr-228771)** > > Biden is arguably the most pro-union occupant of the White House since the New Deal. Certainly he did far, far, FAR more to push back on Republicans and their harmful policies than virtue signalers like Jill Stein and co. have. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/76 "2026-01-12T00:01:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The fact that _Jacobin_ is unhappy with what policies Biden has pushed is not evidence that we are in a post-Democracy era; …it was an article from 2020. And I didn’t post it as evidence we are in a “post-Democracy era.” What are you even on about? > [@Babale](#): > > Do you have a _reputable_ source for the opinion that Biden did not “push back” on Republicans? I don’t need to. As I said to DrDeth I said _Democrats_, NOT Biden, and I clarified I was speaking in broad strokes, and that "not pushing back” doesn’t mean _never pushing back_. > [@Babale](#): > > Certainly he did far, far, FAR more to push back on Republicans and their harmful policies than virtue signalers like Jill Stein and co. have. I’m not sure what relevance Jill Stein has here. Only the Republicans and Democrats have any real political power in America. Well, the Democrats…not so much at the moment. They lost the House, the Senate, the Executive and the Supreme Court for a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/77 "2026-01-12T00:18:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it was an article from 2020. …ok, and? Again, who cares what Jacobin thinks now or what they thought in 2020? I’m sure we can find Fox News articles lambasting Biden, as well as OANN or Breitbart articles. Yes, people who are writing from a fundamentally Illiberal perspective will be unhappy with a Liberal politician. That’s not particularly remarkable. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As I said to DrDeth I said _Democrats_, NOT Biden, and I clarified I was speaking in broad strokes, and that "not pushing back” doesn’t mean _never pushing back_. Speaking in such broad strokes that it’s impossible to ever provide any evidence when called on it is a remarkable skill. I don’t find it very convincing, though. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Well, the Democrats…not so much at the moment. They lost the House, the Senate, the Executive and the Supreme Court for a generation. The House and Senate are up for grabs in this year’s election, and despite the best efforts of “it doesn’t matter Democrats don’t push back” blokes I think it’s very likely that Dems will take those back. The Executive is far less powerful when it doesn’t have a pliant Legislature. Even the courts can be addressed, if Democrats win in 2028. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/78 "2026-01-12T00:25:38Z")
> [@robby](#): > > And even now I don’t think he’s a bad or evil person, just woefully ignorant and/or misinformed from what I can tell. I have lots of relatives in Texas who fall into the same boat. That’s how fascism works. They might not seem like bad people, but they do great harm in the world and giving them aid and comfort supports their fascism. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/79 "2026-01-12T00:33:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …ok, and? Again, who cares what Jacobin thinks now or what they thought in 2020? …obviously you don’t. But my question was directed specifically to DrDeth. I asked them “did they mean this Biden?” My question had a very specific context and you are quoting it _out of context_. > [@Babale](#): > > I’m sure we can find Fox News articles lambasting Biden, as well as OANN or Breitbart articles. Yes, people who are writing from a fundamentally Illiberal perspective will be unhappy with a Liberal politician. That’s not particularly remarkable. I didn’t “lambast” Biden. I asked DrDeth a question. I could lambast him if you like. But probably not here. > [@Babale](#): > > Speaking in such broad strokes that it’s impossible to ever provide any evidence when called on it is a remarkable skill. But we all speak in broad strokes. For example, I’ve read plenty of articles on Fox News that _don’t_ lambast Biden. But I’m not going to nitpick you on that. Because I understand that you are speaking _broadly_. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t find it very convincing, though. :: shrugs :: Thank you for sharing your opinion, I guess? > [@Babale](#): > > The House and Senate are up for grabs in this year’s election, and despite the best efforts of “it doesn’t matter Democrats don’t push back” blokes I think it’s very likely that Dems will take those back. :: shrugs again :: They very well might. But as long as the current leadership is in place, IMHO they will be largely ineffective. (For clarity: by “largely ineffective” that doesn’t mean they won’t _ever_ be effective. I’m speaking in _broad strokes_.) > [@Babale](#): > > The Executive is far less powerful when it doesn’t have a pliant Legislature. The damage has been done. > [@Babale](#): > > Even the courts can be addressed, if Democrats win in 2028. Sure. If the Democrats actually decided to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/80 "2026-01-12T00:42:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But my question was directed specifically to DrDeth. I asked them “did they mean this Biden?” My question had a very specific context and you are quoting it _out of context_. No, I’m quoting it precisely in context. @DrDeth said that Biden pushed back on the Republicans, and you responded “Did you mean this Biden” with a link to the Jacobin article as if the fact that they don’t like Biden implies that Biden did not push back against Republicans. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > :: shrugs again :: They very well might. But as long as the current leadership is in place, IMHO they will be largely ineffective. (For clarity: by “largely ineffective” that doesn’t mean they won’t _ever_ be effective. I’m speaking in _broad strokes_.) If by _largely ineffective_ you mean _they will fail to oppose Republican policy_, you are clearly factually wrong about that. If by _largely ineffective_ you mean _they will fail to push the sort of Socialist nonsense favored by Jacobin_ then I agree and I think that’s great. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535.md?page=5)