# Is the US already post Democracy spin-off from Ice Shooting thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 10, 2026, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535 "2026-01-10T15:06:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/81 "2026-01-12T00:47:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, I’m quoting it precisely in context. @DrDeth said that Biden pushed back on the Republicans, and you responded “Did you mean this Biden” with a link to the Jacobin article as if the fact that they don’t like Biden implies that Biden did not push back against Republicans. …so are you speaking for DrDeth then? Did you mean this Biden then, or another Biden? A yes or no would suffice. > [@Babale](#): > > If by _largely ineffective_ you mean _they will fail to oppose Republican policy_, you are clearly factually wrong about that. If by _largely ineffective_ you mean _they will fail to push the sort of Socialist nonsense favored by Jacobin_ then I agree and I think that’s great. By “largely ineffective” I mean be so pathetic they lost the House, the Senate, the Executive and the Supreme Court running on the sort of policy that apparently you support. It worked _so well_ for you last time. Why don’t they do it all again and lets watch them fail spectacularly one more time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/82 "2026-01-12T00:57:26Z")
Trump didn’t win because the Democrats are pathetic - he won because a big, big chunk of America wanted what he was selling. His raw vote numbers increased each election. That doesn’t mean the Democrats aren’t pathetic - they (we) are, at least in a lot of ways, IMO. But I’m not sure if there’s anything Harris could have done to win. I think she ran nearly as well as humanly possible in the circumstances she faced. America just wanted what Trump was selling more. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/83 "2026-01-12T01:17:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trump didn’t win because the Democrats are pathetic …Trump won for a lot of different reasons. I agree with you on that. But my position on the Democrats has been consistent. I don’t expect them to “push the sort of Socialist nonsense favoured by Jacobin.” I expect them to _listen to what people want_ and then _give them something to vote for_. With an exception for things like trans-rights. They should always stand for the underdog. That’s it. Election 101. It may not have won them the last election. (But it may have) But at least they would have gone down fighting. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think she ran nearly as well as humanly possible in the circumstances she faced. For me it all fell apart when they got Tim Walz to pull his punches. It was a carefully stage-managed campaign that at times was outright weird (“If somebody breaks into my house, they’re getting shot”) . It was the clearest sign for me of how badly the “consultants” and the Dem leadership failed to read the moment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/84 "2026-01-12T01:20:49Z")
Yeah, I agree about that. I think Walz was really getting to Trump and Vance. I hope he runs in '28 and follows his instincts. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/85 "2026-01-12T01:25:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think Walz was really getting to Trump and Vance. …I was like yes! _That’s just what they needed!_ Then we had that debate. And for me, that’s when I felt they had bottled it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/86 "2026-01-12T01:40:46Z")
Right. I wish Walz had asked Vance “why are you so interested in what’s inside strangers’ pants? Why can’t you just let people live their lives and be themselves? I just don’t get it. It’s so damn weird to me.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/87 "2026-01-12T03:14:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …whoah. Non-Americans aren’t allowed to have opinions now? Well, one of our posters have said if you arent from his native country, you cant have opinions about it. But the main thing is that you arent the OP, and the OP gives the definitions for the thread. We arent here to argue your personal definitions. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I just looked up Google News for Newsom and apart from an article titled _“G_ Newsom called out the Texas legislature and their bigoted gerrymandering to ensure a GOP win in the House in 2026 by giving the GOP another 5-6 seats. Newsom called and raised by Prop 50, which could give the Dems an extra Nine seats in Congress. See- An American would know this. We had at least one thread about it here in P&E. Thus more or less single-handedly saving democracy in America [https://www.ppic.org/blog/how-many-seats-would-democrats-gain-under-californias-mid-decade-redistricting-plan/](https://www.ppic.org/blog/how-many-seats-would-democrats-gain-under-californias-mid-decade-redistricting-plan/) > [@Babale](#): > > Certainly he did far, far, FAR more to push back on Republicans and their harmful policies than virtue signalers like Jill Stein and co. have. Right, and good cite there also. > [@Babale](#): > > The House and Senate are up for grabs in this year’s election, and despite the best efforts of “it doesn’t matter Democrats don’t push back” blokes I think it’s very likely that Dems will take those back. > > The Executive is far less powerful when it doesn’t have a pliant Legislature. > > Even the courts can be addressed, if Democrats win in 2028. Well, at least the House- the Senate is a big maybe. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But my question was directed specifically to DrDeth. I asked them “did they mean this Biden?” No, the real Joe Biden, not the fantasy one by a hack writer. > **[Jacobin Bias and Reliability | Ad Fontes Media](https://adfontesmedia.com/jacobin-bias-and-reliability/)** > > Ad Fontes Media rates Jacobin, called the “leading voice of the American left,” as hyper-partisan left in terms of bias and mixed reliabilit … _Ad Fontes Media rates [Jacobin](https://adfontesmedia.com/jacobin-bias-and-reliability/#) in the **Hyper-Partisan Left** category of bias and as **Mixed Reliability/Opinion OR Other Issues** in terms of reliability. [J](https://adfontesmedia.com/jacobin-bias-and-reliability/#)_ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/88 "2026-01-12T03:36:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, one of our posters have said if you arent from his native country, you cant have opinions about it. …I don’t care what one of our other posters has said. I’m talking to you. Am I allowed to have an opinion here or not? Because why bring it up in the first place? > [@DrDeth](#): > > But the main thing is that you arent the OP, and the OP gives the definitions for the thread. It’s a _split-thread_. And the OP _didn’t provide a definition_. And the person I was talking to was arguing as if “post Democracy” meant “fascist dictatorship.” I didn’t think that at all. So I provided what I thought it meant. We obviously need some sort of a benchmark for discussion. Other people (not the OP) put forward their versions. Why can’t I? And how are _you_ defining “post Democracy?” > [@DrDeth](#): > > Newsom called out the Texas legislature and their bigoted gerrymandering to ensure a GOP win in the House in 2026 by giving the GOP another 5-6 seats. So he…said something? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Newsom called and raised by Prop 50, which could give the Dems an extra Nine seats in Congress. :: googles :: That was in _November_. That’s stretching the definition of “just” just a tad. That was _months_ ago. > [@DrDeth](#): > > See- An American would know this. Oh give me a fucking break. I doubt every American would know the specifics of what random thing you were talking about when you said: > [@DrDeth](#): > > Newsom just pushed back in a BIG way. And did you miss the part where I said I was talking in _broad strokes_? > [@DrDeth](#): > > We had at least one thread about it here in P&E. Thus more or less single-handedly saving democracy in America LOL. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, the real Joe Biden, not the fantasy one by a hack writer. So how about this Joe Biden? > **[Why Biden Caved](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2023/05/biden-gop-debt-ceiling-negotiation/674070/)** > > The president said he would not negotiate with Republicans on the debt ceiling. But that’s exactly what he’s now doing. Or this one? > **[Analysis: What Joe Biden got dead wrong about Republicans | CNN Politics](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/10/politics/biden-remarks-trump-republican-party)** > > One of Joe Biden’s core beliefs during, and even after, the 2020 presidential election was that Republicans, on the whole, weren’t half bad. How about this one? [https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/06/29/joe-biden-bipartisanship-2020-president-227250/](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/06/29/joe-biden-bipartisanship-2020-president-227250/) Or this one? > **[Joe Biden and the Disastrous History of Bipartisanship](https://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-bipartisanship-nostalgia-centrism-2020.html)** > > Biden wants to bring the parties together. But for 50 years, that's meant the Right winning every time. How about this guy? [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/us/politics/joe-biden-mitch-mcconnell.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/us/politics/joe-biden-mitch-mcconnell.html) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/89 "2026-01-12T03:47:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Newsom called out the Texas legislature and their bigoted gerrymandering to ensure a GOP win in the House in 2026 by giving the GOP another 5-6 seats. > > So he…said something? If you don’t know, maybe don’t speak authoritatively about it. He didn’t just _say something_, he came up with legislation to counter Texas’s unfair legislative advantage and then got it passed in his state. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That was in _November_. That’s stretching the definition of “just” just a tad. That was _months_ ago. It’s the beginning of January. Claiming that November was “_months_” ago stretches the definition of the plural “S”, since November was 42 days ago. That’s not even a month and a half. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/90 "2026-01-12T03:49:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t care what one of our other posters has said. I’m talking to you. Am I allowed to have an opinion here or not? Sure. But we are not debating YOUR definition > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the OP _didn’t provide a definition_. So? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So how about this Joe Biden? We will stick to the real Joe Biden and what he really did. However, we are getting into hijack territory. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That was in _November_. That’s stretching the definition of “just” just a tad. That was _months_ ago. But you didnt know. And hardly “months”. > [@Babale](#): > > If you don’t know, maybe don’t speak authoritatively about it. > > He didn’t just _say something_, he came up with legislation to counter Texas’s unfair legislative advantage and then got it passed in his state. Right > [@Babale](#): > > It’s the beginning of January. Claiming that November was “_months_” ago stretches the definition of the plural “S”, since November was 42 days ago. That’s not even a month and a half. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/91 "2026-01-12T04:05:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you don’t know, maybe don’t speak authoritatively about it. > > He didn’t just _say something_, he came up with legislation to counter Texas’s unfair legislative advantage and then got it passed in his state. …I acknowledged that in my second response. > [@Babale](#): > > It’s the beginning of January. Claiming that November was “_months_” ago stretches the definition of the plural “S”, since November was 42 days ago. That’s not even a month and a half. We really are just nitpicking everything I’m saying at this stage aren’t we LOL. I checked google news. There was nothing recent that was relevant. I’m not a mind-reader. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. But we are not debating YOUR definition I didn’t say you had to. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So? What do you mean so? You said this: > [@DrDeth](#): > > But the main thing is that you arent the OP, and the OP gives the definitions for the thread. But they _didn’t_. What is it you are wanting me to do here? > [@DrDeth](#): > > We will stick to the real Joe Biden and what he really did. So that would mean yes then. Because that was the real Joe Biden. Or do you not trust the Atlantic and the New York Times now? > [@DrDeth](#): > > But you didnt know. How on earth would you know that? I didn’t know what the heck you were talking about because all you said was this: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Newsom just pushed back in a BIG way. How was I supposed to know what you were talking about? And for the record…I don’t consider that to be “major pushback.” Not in a “post Democracy” world. It shouldn’t require Texas to do anything for Newsom and co to act. They should be pre-emptively doing everything they can right now. If there are other things they could be doing…then do that already. Every Democrat in the country should be singing from the same playbook. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/92 "2026-01-12T04:23:13Z")
We’re effectively at the point where it’s start shooting and blowing shit up, or we just have faith in our institutions and try to vote them out in the mid-terms and the next presidential election. I’m not seeing a middle ground here, and I don’t think the majority of people are at the point where the first option is viable yet. Protesting is a waste of time and makes you a target, and nobody ever listens anyway, right or left, unless you’re already on the right side of things and the protest points up how wrong the establishment is. But snarky signs on City Hall lawn isn’t that. ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Gordon\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_G)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/93 "2026-01-12T04:24:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > CNN is owned by Warner bros. Who owns them? The largest part is the Vanguard group, thru index funds, 401k, and so forth. In other words- the American public, including of course the rich.. The CEO of Warner is definitely rich, worth like $100 Million, considering stock options and the like. Way short of a billionaire. There is no ruling “oligarch” class in America, altho of course they are important due to their wealth. Does Vanguard ask its millions of tiny investors how they should vote their shares? No. And Vanguard (and BlackRock etc.) also own Disney, NewsCorp, Google, Paramount, Netflix, etc. They have little incentive to build up one brand against another. The directors of BlackRock – even those with less than $1,000,000,000 – are all in the same “scratch each others’ back” club. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/94 "2026-01-12T15:52:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, at least the House- the Senate is a big maybe. Alaska’s Senate seat might be in play: [https://www.politico.com/news/2026/01/12/peltola-alaska-senate-2026-midterms-00721596](https://www.politico.com/news/2026/01/12/peltola-alaska-senate-2026-midterms-00721596) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2026, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/95 "2026-01-12T19:25:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Alaska’s Senate seat might be in play: Hmm, good news. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2026, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/96 "2026-01-13T23:48:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the thread is about the US being “post Democracy.” That doesn’t explicitly mean “dictatorship.” The original post said…. > [@madmonk28](#): > > in fact these Potemkin Village vestiges of democracy actually support the authoritarian regime. That’s fatalist bs that enables fascism. We are NOT yet in a post-democracy society. If we treat American democracy as if we were, then Trump and the fascists have one. If we were that would be true American elections would be like Saddam’s Presidential referendums or North Korea’s election, which are absolutely just “Potemkin Village vestiges of democracy actually support the authoritarian regime.”. They are not, and we should not treat them that way. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2026, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/97 "2026-01-13T23:50:33Z")
The fact that we’re even able to have this conversation on the public internet, instead of being tracked down and imprisoned for treason against Dear Leader, disproves the thread’s premise. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2026, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/98 "2026-01-13T23:58:41Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > We are NOT yet in a post-democracy society. If you have to use the word “yet” it’s already too late. Once democracy is on the ballot like it was in 2020, it’s over. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2026, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/99 "2026-01-14T00:12:38Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > If you have to use the word “yet” it’s already too late. > [@griffin1977](#): > > That’s fatalist bs that enables fascism. We are NOT yet in a post-democracy society. If we treat American democracy as if we were, then Trump and the fascists have one. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Once democracy is on the ballot like it was in 2020, it’s over. > [@griffin1977](#): > > That’s fatalist bs that enables fascism. We are NOT yet in a post-democracy society. If we treat American democracy as if we were, then Trump and the fascists have one. It’s amazing how you managed to say nothing that wasn’t already responded to perfectly. Actually, not PERFECTLY, one should presumably be won. The fact that Democracy itself was on the ballot is _disgusting_, and a _travesty_, and even a _tragedy_. It’s by no means _over_. That’s the _last_ thing it is. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2026, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535/100 "2026-01-14T00:18:23Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > If you have to use the word “yet” it’s already too late. That’s not even slightly what the word “yet” means. You can acknowledge that things are utterly f\_cked and heading towards a fascist dictatorship, without just throwing in the towel and letting the fascists win. Saying “it’s already too late” is an actively pro-fascist position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-already-post-democracy-spin-off-from-ice-shooting-thread/1026535.md?page=6)