# Is the US, basically, a Scottish nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994 "2010-08-11T23:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/21 "2010-08-12T02:25:35Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Quite a bit of Western cowboy culture came from another Border. The Mounties? 😕 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/22 "2010-08-12T02:28:54Z")
I associate what the OP’s calling for more with [WASP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant)s than Scottish. Many WASP and Scot surnames are interchangeable (from my own ancestors White, Milner, and, in fact, Scott are found among both). ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/23 "2010-08-12T03:04:54Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Even now the Ulster “loyalists” tend to have a fierce Scottish-Protestant identity (isn’t that a big part of the Northern Ireland conflict?) I don’t think that community would have been splintered apart in only a hundred years after the 1600s. Perhaps, but see [post=12790953]this post[/post] in a current thread about the Troubles, where **lexi** points out that the Scots-Irish often consider themselves just as Irish as the Catholics, and aren’t in any meaningful sense interlopers or colonials. > [@An\_Arky](#): > > However, there’s also a tendency of Americans to place a bit too much emphasis on their hundreds-of-years past European ancestry, when there just really isn’t any recent connection, and in fact their “heritage” is often, frankly, apocryphal. That’s certainly true, for white Americans at least. The post I linked to also discusses this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/24 "2010-08-12T03:24:19Z")
While there’s a group of people who claim that the Scots Irish were the most influential on the U.S., I’d take their claims with a grain of salt. There’s always a certain amount of special pleading in their claims. They take a selected group of things to represent American culture that are only a limited view of the culture. They claim to show that these were Scots-Irish-influenced, but they don’t make much of an effort to check if these aspects of American culture could be influenced by other countries too. I don’t know how you could make a complete survey of American culture to check what country or people were the greatest influence. At the very least it would be a huge job. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/25 "2010-08-12T07:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Just as an example - if running for president, anything other than a Scottish/Scotch-Irish name (including a German name, Bush and Eisenhower excepted) would be unusual. I decided to test this, using [this country-of-origin site](http://www.searchforancestors.com/surnames/origin/). Obama: Not on the site, but we all know that’s Kenyan McCain: Irish version of Scottish McKean. Bush: Either English, or Anglicized version of German Busch. I’m not sure which the Presidents’ name is. Kerry: Welsh. I’d have thought it’d be native Irish, but either way, not Scottish. Gore: Either English or French Dole: English, Irish, or French Clinton: Scots-Irish or English Dukakis: Can’t find it on the site. Reagan: Irish Mondale: Anglicized form of Norwegian Mundahl Carter: English, French, or Scots-Irish Ford: English, Irish, Jewish, or German McGovern: Irish and Scottish Nixon: English, Scottish, or Scots-Irish Humphrey: English Goldwater: German or Jewish Johnson: English, Scottish, or anglicized form of equivalent names from other languages. Kennedy: Irish and Scottish Eisenhower: German Stevenson: Scottish and Scots-Irish I think that’s enough to make the point. Out of those, I count 8 that _might_ be Scottish (or might be English or Irish), and 11 that definitely aren’t Scottish. Scottish names are certainly fairly well-represented, but I don’t think they’re significantly more represented than Irish or English. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/26 "2010-08-12T07:50:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, you’re wrong - all the _cool_ people are English or Welsh. As an English person with a Welsh girlfriend, I can only endorse this comment. Although, all the Welsh people went to [Patagonia](http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/migration_patagonia.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/27 "2010-08-12T08:19:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > My family comes from England and Wales. So, you’re wrong - all the _cool_ people are English or Welsh. Like Barack Obama. Totally Welsh - just look at that name! Look at him! He does look a little like Shirley Bassey, now you mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/28 "2010-08-12T10:31:33Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > While there’s a group of people who claim that the Scots Irish were the most influential on the U.S., I’d take their claims with a grain of salt. There’s always a certain amount of special pleading in their claims. They take a selected group of things to represent American culture that are only a limited view of the culture. They claim to show that these were Scots-Irish-influenced, but they don’t make much of an effort to check if these aspects of American culture could be influenced by other countries too. I don’t know how you could make a complete survey of American culture to check what country or people were the greatest influence. At the very least it would be a huge job. The Scots themselves have got a little cottage industry up-and-running trying to convince everybody that they invented the modern world. I’ve Scottish friends who’ve tried to argue in the past that the Enlightenment was a Scottish movement, for instance, presumably unaware that it engulfed the whole of the Western world simultaneously. See also the numerous books along the lines of “How the Scots Invented the Modern World” by Herman. (Not to play down the role many prominent Scottish philosophers and scientists had during the Englightenment, though!) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/29 "2010-08-12T11:02:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Kerry: Welsh. I’d have thought it’d be native Irish, but either way, not Scottish. Possibly interesting note: the name Kerry was adopted by Kerry’s grandfather (and the grandfather’s brother) off a map. The family name was originally Kohn, but the brothers had converted to Catholicism and decided they wanted a name that didn’t sound Jewish. > [@](#): > > Dukakis: Can’t find it on the site. Greek. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/30 "2010-08-12T11:49:39Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > > > Even now the Ulster “loyalists” tend to have a fierce Scottish-Protestant identity (isn’t that a big part of the Northern Ireland conflict?) I don’t think that community would have been splintered apart in only a hundred years after the 1600s. > > Perhaps, but see [post=12790953]this post[/post] in a current thread about the Troubles, where **lexi** points out that the Scots-Irish often consider themselves just as Irish as the Catholics, and aren’t in any meaningful sense interlopers or colonials… I, for one, would not attempt to tell [these guys](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00519/Orange-March_682_519910a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1354895.ece&usg=__O7Wr3FtT5y5xRjQdZFUlg8VRh9s=&h=400&w=682&sz=110&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=k_-iGoY_nugoMM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=206&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dorange%2Bparade%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D647%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=513&ei=H99jTK_qG8KAlAfomN2BCQ&oei=H99jTK_qG8KAlAfomN2BCQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=124&ty=66) they ought to Go Back to Scotland! ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/31 "2010-08-12T11:56:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Kerry: Welsh. I’d have thought it’d be native Irish, but either way, not Scottish. > > Possibly interesting note: the name Kerry was adopted by Kerry’s grandfather (and the grandfather’s brother) off a map. The family name was originally Kohn, but the brothers had converted to Catholicism and decided they wanted a name that didn’t sound Jewish. Ironic, given that Coen/Cohen is a not uncommon native Irish name. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/32 "2010-08-12T12:54:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Kerry: Welsh. I’d have thought it’d be native Irish, but either way, not Scottish. > > Possibly interesting note: the name Kerry was adopted by Kerry’s grandfather (and the grandfather’s brother) off a map. The family name was originally Kohn, but the brothers had converted to Catholicism and decided they wanted a name that didn’t sound Jewish. Actually, in Kerry’s case, it’s his mother’s family who was Scottish. She was a Forbes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/33 "2010-08-12T14:18:48Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > There was a bit of Scot “pioneering” in the central Appalachians with the occasional ethnic Scot moving into Georgia or Ohio > > Hm. The stuff I’ve read more indicates that the Scottish influence has been massive. For example - the cowboy culture of the West came from border Scots (who may well have been expelled from Britain for cattle rustling!); the layout of many small US towns copied that of the Ulster Scots towns (I can’t find the details of this at the moment); there are the ubiquitous Masons; and the Scottish word “clan” (and firey rituals) has its own dark side of course. Cattle rustling was as Irish as it was Scot. (The word “cowboy” seems to have been an Irish introduction.) Masons are not particularly Scots and the “Scottish Rite” was actually formed in England with a romantic appeal to the tradition of Jacob VI/I without any actual Scots involved in the process. One finds clans in the already noted Appalachian region, but not particularly elsewhere in either the West or the rest of the U.S. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > African Americans are well known to have Scottish last names; also there’s this fascinating stuff- Which would be the result of the Scots or Scots-Irish migration to the Carolinas and Georgia, with further movement West, but hardly indicative of some major influence on the whole country. There is no question that the Scots and Scot-Irish played a large role in the development of the U.S., but I see no evidence that they placed a “Scots” stamp on the entire U.S. culture. There were far more Methodists and Episcopalians and Baptists than Presbyterians throughout most of the U.S. history. I can easily come up with many examples of German or Irish traditions that have permeated the U.S. (Christmas, Hallowe’en, etc.) that are actually defiance of Scots traditions. If one wished to argue that the Scot contribution is often overlooked, I think that that case can be made. That the U.S. is “basically” a (culturally) “Scottish nation” is far too much of a stretch. = = = I would be interested in the information regarding a Scot influence on town building. = = = ETA - Correction: the Jacobite connection was a reference to Charles II, not to James VI/I. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/34 "2010-08-12T14:26:01Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Could a Scottish nation have America’s national debt?! > > GW Bush was not Scottish, that was the problem. 🙂 And as we know, if it’s not Scottish it’s CRAP!\* \*SNL reference. Mike Myers in pre-Shrek/Fat Bastard mode. Look it up, young people. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/35 "2010-08-12T14:31:34Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > While there’s a group of people who claim that the Scots Irish were the most influential on the U.S., I’d take their claims with a grain of salt. There’s always a certain amount of special pleading in their claims. They take a selected group of things to represent American culture that are only a limited view of the culture. I was pretty struck with Jim Webb’s thesis in [Born Fighting](http://books.google.com/books?id=bV_oMj2qQwsC), which kind of opened my eyes about the S-I heritage, but yes, he does “specially plead” for them as people of force, and that ethic of force as fundamentally American. As a former SecNav and Vietnam vet, he might well be expected to. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/36 "2010-08-12T14:38:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I can easily come up with many examples of German or Irish traditions that have permeated the U.S. (Christmas, Hallowe’en, etc.) that are actually defiance of Scots traditions. Christmas, for sure, but Hallowe’en is as much a Scottish thing as Irish, being generally Celtic. Trick or treating comes from the Scots tradition of _guising_. It was still mostly called guising when I was a lad in the 70s, but nowadays most kids call it trick-or-treat. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/37 "2010-08-12T14:41:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And how do you know the scottish weren’t copying somebody _else_’s pioneer identity, eh? Like maybe…the Welsh? Because if this were a Welsh nation, there’d be more sheep. Scared sheep. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/38 "2010-08-12T14:41:14Z")
If it isn’t Scottish, it’s crap. SNL ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/39 "2010-08-12T14:49:28Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Hm. The stuff I’ve read more indicates that the Scottish influence has been massive. For example - the cowboy culture of the West came from border Scots (who may well have been expelled from Britain for cattle rustling!); the layout of many small US towns copied that of the Ulster Scots towns (I can’t find the details of this at the moment); there are the ubiquitous Masons; and the Scottish word “clan” (and firey rituals) has its own dark side of course. What is the layout of an Ulster Scots town, and how does it differ from the layout of any other town in the UK? How do the Border Scots behave any differently from Border English, who presumably emigrated in as large a number as the Border Scots did (wasn’t it the Highland Scots who did most of the emigrating, not the Lowland Scots, after the Highland Clearances?) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/40 "2010-08-12T15:20:18Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > O’bama is definitely Irish. It looks like he actually is BTW. Remember his mother’s side was white. > [@](#): > > Barack Obama’s Irish links to the Kearney family from Moneygall Co. Offaly came to light last year, apart from the obvious interest of a link to a US presidential candidate, the story of the Kearney family of Moneygall is a fascinating story in itself. > > The Kearney family history, as researched by Eneclann, is interesting, because it illustrates over five generations, a family history that was not untypical in Ireland, but which we don’t often consider as a typical emigrant story. [http://www.eneclann.ie/research/genealogy\_obama\_family\_history.html](http://www.eneclann.ie/research/genealogy_obama_family_history.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994.md?page=3)