# Is the US, basically, a Scottish nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994 "2010-08-11T23:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/41 "2010-08-12T15:26:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Masons are not particularly Scots and the “Scottish Rite” was actually formed in England with a romantic appeal to the tradition of Jacob VI/I without any actual Scots involved in the process. > > \ > > ETA - Correction: the Jacobite connection was a reference to Charles II, not to James VI/I. It’s curious the Freemasons had any connection to Jacobitism, or to Restorationism, at all. Back then, the Masons were known as secularizing republican freethinkers – diametrically opposed to Catholic traditionalist-legitimists. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/42 "2010-08-12T15:32:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Cattle rustling was as Irish as it was Scot. If we’re going by cattle rustling then the United States is basically an Assyrian nation. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/43 "2010-08-12T15:37:05Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The Scots themselves have got a little cottage industry up-and-running trying to convince everybody that they invented the modern world. (snipped) (Not to play down the role many prominent Scottish philosophers and scientists had during the Englightenment, though!) [Wha’s like us?](http://www.btinternet.com/~a.turnbull123/text_page.htm) (damn few, and they’re a’ deid!) ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/44 "2010-08-12T15:41:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If one wished to argue that the Scot contribution is often overlooked, I think that that case can be made. That the U.S. is “basically” a (culturally) “Scottish nation” is far too much of a stretch. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but isn’t there the argument that the Declaration of Abroath was a great influence on the US Declaration of Independance? > **[Declaration of Arbroath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath#Influence)** > > The Declaration of Arbroath (Latin: Declaratio Arbroathis; Scots: Declaration o Aiberbrothock; Scottish Gaelic: Tiomnadh Bhruis) is the name usually given to a letter, dated 6 April 1320 at Arbroath, written by Scottish barons and addressed to Pope John XXII. It constituted King Robert I's response to his excommunication for disobeying the pope's demand in 1317 for a truce in the First War of Scottish Independence. The letter asserted the antiquity of the independence of the Kingdom of Scot Ge... ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/45 "2010-08-12T15:50:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Dukakis: Can’t find it on the site. > [@Marley23](#): > > Greek. I thought that was the one thing that people would know about Dukakis! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/46 "2010-08-12T15:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > It looks like he [Obama] actually is [Irish] BTW. Remember his mother’s side was white. [There’s no one as Irish as Barack O’Bama](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xkw8ip43Vk) But seriously, whether the Irish identify someone as being Irish has a lot more to do with whether they like him than it does with actual ancestry. There were folks in Ireland rooting for Obama to win specifically because he was Irish… Never mind that his opponent was named McCain. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/47 "2010-08-12T15:58:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But seriously, whether the Irish identify someone as being Irish has a lot more to do with whether they like him than it does with actual ancestry. There were folks in Ireland rooting for Obama to win specifically because he was Irish… Never mind that his opponent was named McCain. Almost every person I know was rooting for Obama. Not because he was of Irish heritage but because he was Obama. I will have to admit however that almost everyone I know would be classed as pinko commie bastards in the States 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/48 "2010-08-12T16:25:12Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > O’bama is definitely Irish. Hardy Drew and the Nancy Boys have a good [rendition](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EADUQWKoVek) of the song as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/49 "2010-08-12T17:04:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Almost every person I know was rooting for Obama. Not because he was of Irish heritage but because he was Obama. Well, of course that was the underlying reason, but I saw several folks who (at least facetiously) said that their support was because of his heritage. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/50 "2010-08-12T17:41:11Z")
> **[English Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American)** > > English Americans (also known as Anglo-Americans) are Americans whose ancestry originates wholly or partly in England. According to the 2020 United States census, English Americans are the largest group in the United States with 46.6 million Americans self-identifying as having some English origins (many combined with another heritage) representing (19.8%) of the White American population. This includes 25,536,410 (12.5% of whites) identified as predominantly or "English alone". > Despite their... > [@](#): > > In the 1980 United States Census, over 49 million (49,598,035) Americans claimed English ancestry, at the time around 26.34% of the total population and largest reported group which, even today, would make them the largest ethnic group in the United States. This outnumbered the population of England at the time. > > In 1982, an opinion poll organization showed respondents a card listing a number of ethnic groups and asked, “Thinking both of what they have contributed to this country and have gotten from this country, for each one tell me whether you think, on balance, they’ve been a good or a bad thing for this country”. The English were the top ethnic group with 66% saying they were a good thing for the United States, followed by the Irish at 62%. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/51 "2010-08-12T18:48:47Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > German is- by far- the largest single ancestral group in the U.S., an estimated 17%or about 50.5 million Americans. Is it really that German is the largest ancestral group in the US, or rather that more Americans claim German ancestry than any other ancestry? Americans can often claim more than one ethnic origin, but will often go with the one that sounds more “interesting” (German rather than English, for example). ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/52 "2010-08-12T19:21:53Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > German is- by far- the largest single ancestral group in the U.S., an estimated 17%or about 50.5 million Americans. > > Is it really that German is the largest ancestral group in the US, or rather that more Americans claim German ancestry than any other ancestry? Americans can often claim more than one ethnic origin, but will often go with the one that sounds more “interesting” (German rather than English, for example). Quick straw poll: How many americans do you know who hyphenate themselves as English-Americans? I expect that americans of english ancestry are vastly undercounted for a similar reason. My guess is that England contributed more immigrants than any other country until fairly recently. I wonder what you could learn about the ancestry of early settlers from a study of place names? Count up the New Yorks and the Albanys and the Plymouths and the Portsmouths and compare that to the New Glasgows and the Aberdeens and the Edinburghs and the Arbroaths. I wonder what you’d find. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/53 "2010-08-12T19:33:31Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > My OP was referring to both Scots and Scotch-Irish (who were Scots, only recently moved to Northern Ireland) Who were themselves [Norsemen, only recently moved to Scotland.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age#Scotland) So we are basically Vikings, if you want to split hairs. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/54 "2010-08-12T22:54:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > > > My OP was referring to both Scots and Scotch-Irish (who were Scots, only recently moved to Northern Ireland) > > Who were themselves [Norsemen, only recently moved to Scotland.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age#Scotland) > > So we are basically Vikings, if you want to split hairs. Vikings claimed they were descendants of Ask (an Ash tree) and Embla (an Elm tree) transformed into humans by Odin, so that means Americans have always been green. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/55 "2010-08-13T00:31:51Z")
It should be noted that the so-called “Scotch Irish” who colonized Ulster were actually a mix of immigrants from Scotland **and** from northern England. So even the “Scotch Irish” are about as much English as they are Scottish. And anyway, I think the “Scotch Irish” influence in America is often romanticized and overstated. It’s there, of course, but it wasn’t enough to overwhelm the earlier English colonizations. The Virginia colony grew exponentially in the years following the establishment of Jamestown, and it did so with overwhelmingly _English_ settlers. The Ulster Scots who arrived later in no way subsumed that established culture, though they certainly contributed to it. (And as Tom notes, German immigration is the often-overlooked X-factor in American culture. Germans came in large numbers to both the northern and southern colonies.) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/56 "2010-08-13T00:34:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > > > My OP was referring to both Scots and Scotch-Irish (who were Scots, only recently moved to Northern Ireland) > > Who were themselves [Norsemen, only recently moved to Scotland.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age#Scotland) > > So we are basically Vikings, if you want to split hairs. I think that is overstating the Viking influence. They were quite late in the various invasions, although to be fair there are parts of Scotland that do retain a certain Norse aspect to this day, mostly the very far north of the mainland and the Northern Isles. Of course, bits of these parts are closer to Norway than they are to,say, Edinburgh, and until fairly recently trade was much easier in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/57 "2010-08-13T01:38:01Z")
I’ve lived here all of my 42 years, and I have never thought of the USA as being Scottish in any way. WASPs are Protestant, but seldom Scottish. I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of good points above, just that it’s never occurred to me before this. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/58 "2010-08-13T02:53:23Z")
The generally cited statistic is that there are more German American than English Americans: > **[German Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American)** > > 14,323,028 (4.3%) German alone > German Americans (German: Deutschamerikaner, pronounced \[ˈdɔʏtʃʔameʁɪˌkaːnɐ\]) are Americans who have full or partial German ancestry. According to the Academy for Cultural Diplomacy, "German-Americans make up the largest self-reported ancestry group within the United States accounting for roughly 49 million people and approximately 17% of the population of the US." This is an increase from 2010 when it was 45.7 million people. German Americans account for about ... I have no idea if someone has done a really good, scientific study of what the largest amount of ancestry is. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/59 "2010-08-13T04:24:13Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The generally cited statistic is that there are more German American than English Americans And I don’t think you can even rely on self reporting. Here in the South, a lot of people think they have Dutch ancestry, when in fact what they have is “Deutsch” (German) ancestry. I heard for years about the “Dutch” part of my family, and it turned out that the “Dutch” branch was actually German, part of the [Moravian community in North Carolina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#South). (Everybody down this way who has heard about a “Dutch” ancestor, or a “black Dutch” ancestor, you may actually have a German ancestor.) ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/60 "2010-08-13T06:33:55Z")
I apparently do a lot of things No True Scotsman would ever do. I would like to wear kilts more often, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994.md?page=4)