# Is the US, basically, a Scottish nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994 "2010-08-11T23:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/81 "2010-08-14T20:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > There are several strands of mainstream Yank: Notably lacking here is all the rest of Europe. It looks to me that Italians have almost completely assimilated, and various Slavic ethnicities are pretty close. When a TV show needs to mark a character as “just an ordinary guy”, they’ll usually give him a Polish last name (something with vowels, at least, but ending in -ski). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/82 "2010-08-15T00:20:57Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > > [@foolsguinea](#): > > > > There are several strands of mainstream Yank: > > > > 1a) English. The top dogs in the early settlers were substantially from England. Early Mormons went to England to preach & brought converts back to Utah. > > Stop right there. Early Mormons, so that’s in the 1830s, yes? Two and a bit centuries after the founding of Jamestown. Two different migrations. The early Mormons were descended from English & saw the English as kin, & their first major mission was to England, & involved dragging a bunch more English to this continent. I was partially listing, not restating. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/83 "2010-08-15T00:22:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There are several strands of mainstream Yank: > > Notably lacking here is all the rest of Europe. It looks to me that Italians have almost completely assimilated, and various Slavic ethnicities are pretty close. When a TV show needs to mark a character as “just an ordinary guy”, they’ll usually give him a Polish last name (something with vowels, at least, but ending in -ski). Ooh, good point. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/84 "2010-08-15T05:20:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The origin of black surnames are complicated anyway. Most times they can be traced back to slaveowners. Sometimes a person picked the name if it was famous (explaining the prominance of “Washington” among black folk) or because they were positively influenced by someone with that surname, like a local preacher in the area. There’s a large black family in Alabama with several prominent members (mostly in education, some have served in the legislature) with the surname Shakespeare for that reason. There’s a popular conception that when the Civil War ended the freed slaves all took the surnames of their owners in 1865. It is true that many did but it’s arguable whether most did; most slaves _already had last names_ when the war ended that might or might not have anything to do with the name of their owners. The census of Jefferson’s plantation at Monticello had about 18 different surnames for his 160+ slaves. Many took the names of _previous_ owners when they were sold or willed or otherwise left their places of birth and their families. In addition to the psychological benefit of carrying a piece of your past and your identity with you it had practical reasons- it distinguished you from other _Jack_s or _Jill_s and it kept family relationships obvious , which was especially important on large plantations (those with 50 or more slaves)- it was sometimes important to remember that Mary is the daughter of Bob and Emma LITTLE the field hands as opposed to Mary the daughter of Rachel BROWN the cook. Speaking of: Brown, Black, and Freeman were among the top chosen new surnames by freed slaves after the war. Some of the bolder took Turner (after Nat), though that could be inadvisable if whites knew you before the name change. Lincoln was rarely taken as a surname but was a not uncommon given name (one of the most famous being ironically Lincoln Perry who used the stagename Stepin Fetchit, a synonym for the servile and shiftless stereotypes of old Hollywood [though the actor himself joined the Nation of Islam in later years]). ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/85 "2010-08-15T06:26:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **From the OP** : Scots are probably the one group that will never face discrimation. Unless they are women or poor or have extreme political views or are gay or… > [@](#): > > …the Scottish identity has seemed to supersede others as the “real American” identity. In your eyes. But if someone is a citizen, she or he is a _real_ American. And any failure to acknowledge that is incredible. And I say that with Scottish lines on both sides of my family and a Presbyterian background. So what? Those lines are only two of many lines that may lead to all sorts of places. The more I explore my ancestry, the more cultural links I find! I am more than my father’s last name or his mother’s maiden name or my mother’s maiden name. And looking at the last name of American presidents to determine what their ethnic background is is really silly unless the family had recently immigrated on both sides. I like Scottish traditions, I belong to a Clan (USA), and I know where to order out-of-date canned haggis. But I’m a firm believer in the strength of the Melting Pot. Love your posts, **Sampiro**! ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/86 "2010-08-22T20:52:49Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > (Also, how many country singers have Scottish names? All of them, I think.) When I was in my early 20s and decided I was going to embark on a career as a country singer (never actually got any further than singing at open mics), I was considering “stage names” because my actual first & last names together just don’t sound very “country”. I narrowed it down to two possibilities: flip-flop my first and middle name and become Dean Richards, or, even better, take my mother’s maiden name and bill myself as Rick (or Rich) McKinley. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Americans can often claim more than one ethnic origin, but will often go with the one that sounds more “interesting” (German rather than English, for example). Indeed, my ancestry is allegedly English/Scottish/Irish/Dutch/French, in order of prominence, but I tend to identify more as Scottish than English. > [@kevlaw](#): > > I wonder what you could learn about the ancestry of early settlers from a study of place names? Count up the New Yorks Well, New York City was originally called [New Amsterdam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam). > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So we are basically Vikings, if you want to split hairs. I was very surprised when I discovered that my family name, “[Osborne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne)”, was derived from the Old Norse “Asbjørn”. I’d assumed for nearly 40 years that it was an ordinary English name that made reference to some ancestor’s birthplace. > [@Spoke](#): > > And I don’t think you can even rely on self reporting. Here in the South, a lot of people think they have Dutch ancestry, when in fact what they have is “Deutsch” (German) ancestry. I heard for years about the “Dutch” part of my family, and it turned out that the “Dutch” branch was actually German, part of the [Moravian community in North Carolina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#South). (Everybody down this way who has heard about a “Dutch” ancestor, or a “black Dutch” ancestor, you may actually have a German ancestor.) Hmm. That might be the case in my family as well. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > Is it because people are so ashamed to be considered English? > > Some underdogs would like everyone to think so, but experience in the real world would suggest otherwise. > > Could it be that the reason there are no "English"Americans is because they are the bog standard "American "Americans? I would wager it has a lot to do with the fact that England was the specific country we declared independence _from_. The whole point of the Revolutionary War was that we wanted to stop being “English” and become “Americans” instead. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994/87 "2010-08-23T02:04:43Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > […] I think the “Scotch Irish” influence in America is often romanticized and overstated. It’s there, of course, but it wasn’t enough to overwhelm the earlier English colonizations. The Virginia colony grew exponentially in the years following the establishment of Jamestown, and it did so with overwhelmingly _English_ settlers. The Ulster Scots who arrived later in no way subsumed that established culture, though they certainly contributed to it. If anything, the S-Is fitted in so well because they were so well adapted to serve the interests of ruling classes. Their emphasis on warrior spirit, religious faith, and manual labor put them in an ideal place to work and fight like hell for interests that were not necessarily their own, and not to be any too troubled about doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-basically-a-scottish-nation/549994.md?page=4)