# Is the US becoming a banana republic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976 "2013-12-10T14:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/221 "2013-12-25T20:27:54Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Yes, rights and life for Americans is just getting better … > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs) > > … and better. The video maker lost me when he said that Americans are “sheeple”. > **[Wake Up Sheeple](https://xkcd.com/1013/)** :smack: It goes then from that to a Godwin by making a comparison to the “loss of freedoms now” to the WWII Holocaust. To the dismissed pile it goes… ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/222 "2013-12-25T20:29:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The US has seen a steady move towards more and more freedom over the years … This being some of the proof of it. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/223 "2013-12-25T20:44:52Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Yes, rights and life for Americans is just getting better … > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs) > > … and better. > [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > This being some of the proof of it. > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs) That video is even better the 2nd time around. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/224 "2013-12-25T20:49:18Z")
"He awoke the Sheeple!!! “All is lost!” ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/225 "2013-12-25T21:04:02Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > That video is even better the 2nd time around. Did I link the same video twice? Ooooops! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/226 "2013-12-26T01:01:53Z")
Four hours later I wonder… why did he note the mistake but not make the correction? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/227 "2013-12-26T02:36:55Z")
Because he has no argument except “Wake UP sheeple!” When you’re utterly wrong, but have convinced yourself, all you can do is keep telling the ‘sheeple’ that they’re blind to what you see. Even if you can’t show that what you see is even there. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/228 "2013-12-26T03:02:57Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Yes, rights and life for Americans is just getting better … > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtqaH-hnFs) > > … and better. This actually raises a serious issue. If posters actually think they can make a political point by linking to a YouTube video, how can you argue that the U.S. is _not_ a country in decline? It’s even bigger than that. Anyone who tries to make the case that the U.S. was better in any of these issues in the past must have been failed by a spectacularly substandard educational system. Ironically, they are their own best argument for their cause. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/229 "2013-12-26T03:10:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Section 8](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_(housing)) > [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program) > [School meal programs in the United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_meal_programs_in_the_United_States) > [Temporary Assistance for Needy Families](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANF) > [Goodwill Industries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwill_Industries) > [Public education in the United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_education_in_the_United_States) > The U.S. isn’t quite the Dickensian free-for-all you seem to imagine. Literally every program you just named exists here. > [@JohnT](#): > > I would like to note that HA mentioned only the large programs. The state, city, and county programs are still in existence (50 states, 3,144 counties, 30,000 cities and towns), as well as many private charities such as the Salvation Army, various Food Banks, and more. > My wife and daughter, yesterday afternoon, spent 3 hours at the Food Bank putting together meals for children in day care programs for single parents. 2,000 meals a day get made and distributed, and, again, that’s just one of the programs available upon request. This past weekend, we spent an additional 3 hours pulling weeds from the garden and sorting cans. (The SAFB provides over 60,000 meals a week to the needy in San Antonio, btw.) > [That is how things work in America](http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-giving-statistics). We just don’t leave it up to the government, we pull together ourselves and help the poor and hungry with our bare hands ([and, yes, checkbooks](http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/24/america-philanthropy-income-oped-cx_ee_1226eaves.html). Americans give more in charity, in both absolute and per capita terms, than any other industrialized country.) Thanks HA for providing examples of US programs for the poor. I was actually aware of them. And John T, I have great admiration for the charitable work you and your family does. If those programs in place actually worked or were improved, you would not need to be so charitable. There are no foodbanks or soup kitchens in Sweden or Denmark, there is no need. The poor get cash benefits and they can go out and buy food and clothing as required. People pay for the poor through taxes. Free health care helps too. The number of online sites I have seen for people asking for donations for cancer treatment or other ailments is so very sad. And that can be from middle class families too since healthcare costs in the US can bankrupt a family. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Very simply, no. > This is not true. The U.S. has not reversed course. It is vastly - vastly - more active in fighting poverty than it was 50 years ago. > I was thirteen 50 years ago so I can attest to the lack of programs in the country. I was what we defined as working class poor. We got nothing at all from government programs. > The War on Poverty did not start until 1965. Most of the programs Human Action listed come from after that time. There may be some noisy voices on the right trying to roll these back but it has not happened yet and there is no public political appetite for them to do so. I don’t know where you live or what news you look at, but when I look at the world I see the same pressures for austerity everywhere in every country. (And with some successes, especially when it comes to workers, hours, and pay.) Nothing about the U.S. is unique, and in fact it is rising from the worldwide recession better and faster than most other western countries. > There is virtually nothing about today’s society that is not vastly superior to that of 50 years ago. Politically, economically, or technologically, in matters of health, consumer goods, food, education, or basic freedoms, in the condition of cities or farms or housing. And while there continue to be economic ups and downs, and individual people are being hurt, and nothing is perfect, and all that will continue to be true in the future - THE U.S. IS NOT IN DECLINE. > And I say this as a cynical curmudgeon. It is a plain matter of fact. I can - and do - look at the past, at every decade in the past, and compare it to today. They pale before the reality. If the U.S. ever goes into absolute decline in my lifetime I will be out there shouting about it. In the meantime, I say its Creationism and I say the hell with it. You say this and I grant you that living through it, you must have seen improvements, but haven’t you also noted other things? In 1965, Detroit was still one of the richest cities in the US. Now it’s one of the poorest and has gone bankrupt. I can think of no other economically advanced country who would allow a major city to fall so spectacularly as Detroit has, creating slums where there was once prosperity. And there are other cities in the US with similar problems. You say, you have only seen improvements, but surely you couldn’t have overlooked Detroit? Isn’t it more like two steps forward, three steps back? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/230 "2013-12-26T03:47:50Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > You say this and I grant you that living through it, you must have seen improvements, but haven’t you also noted other things? > In 1965, Detroit was still one of the richest cities in the US. Now it’s one of the poorest and has gone bankrupt. I can think of no other economically advanced country who would allow a major city to fall so spectacularly as Detroit has, creating slums where there was once prosperity. And there are other cities in the US with similar problems. You say, you have only seen improvements, but surely you couldn’t have overlooked Detroit? > Isn’t it more like two steps forward, three steps back? Detroit was absolutely devastated in the Great Depression. Why don’t you start your timeline then? It is obviously and completely imbecilic to state that everything is wonderful today. That’s why I’ve pointedly not done it. I’ve stated specifically several times that many things are bad and need improvement. A million things. Make a list of them, as long as you want. But that list is not equivalent to the United States. The United States is, say, ten million things. So nine million things are better than in 1965. We can play this game all day long. What it amounts to is that I am saying that so many hugely important things have changed for the better that daily life for virtually everybody is - net - better than it ever has been. You can point to individual things that are bad, or worse, or flat-out awful. That is not decline. That is the inevitable product of living in the real world. If you want to rail against any or all the individually bad things, count me in. I’ll be happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with you screaming. However, I cannot blind myself to the reality that every single country and every society within every single country has a multitude of individually bad things. No utopia exists anywhere on earth. The totality of the positives of the United States stack up impressively against the totality of the positives in any other country. Maybe the totality of its negatives are also impressive - impressively horrible. I couldn’t argue with that. But it has always been so. It will always be so. And it will be so everywhere else, too. What has happened throughout history is that countries borrow (adapt, steal, imitate) positives from each other. That will continue. The U.S. will borrow good things from Sweden and Denmark. And Sweden and Denmark will borrow good things from the U.S. For the foreseeable future living standards will improve net all over the world. No decline is in sight. The bad stuff will continue to dominate headlines, also as has been true forever. Good. Let’s all get mad about them and work to change them. But that’s been exactly the process since the Industrial Revolution. Nothing has changed today. Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/231 "2013-12-26T04:07:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > My question to you is the same as it has been to everyone else. When exactly did the “population of the U.S. [have] less rights, less freedom, less democratic principles” than they do now? Name the time. Name the rights, freedoms, and democratic principles that they have lost. Remember that my lifetime includes the McCarthy era, the Nixon era, and the Bush era, and that I have seen the onset of black rights, women’s rights, gay rights, and many other advances personally. When \*exactly \*are you comparing to? I’ve had a few discussions with people who claim the US is circling the drain and I asked them the same question: when was it better? The only answer I ever got that wasn’t simple dodging like Riga’s was “a few minutes before the Patriot Act was signed”. So Riga, when in US history was it better than it is now? ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/232 "2013-12-26T04:21:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Detroit was absolutely devastated in the Great Depression. Why don’t you start your timeline then? > > It is obviously and completely imbecilic to state that everything is wonderful today. That’s why I’ve pointedly not done it. I’ve stated specifically several times that many things are bad and need improvement. A million things. Make a list of them, as long as you want. > > But that list is not equivalent to the United States. The United States is, say, ten million things. So nine million things are better than in 1965. > > We can play this game all day long. What it amounts to is that I am saying that so many hugely important things have changed for the better that daily life for virtually everybody is - net - better than it ever has been. You can point to individual things that are bad, or worse, or flat-out awful. That is not decline. That is the inevitable product of living in the real world. > > If you want to rail against any or all the individually bad things, count me in. I’ll be happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with you screaming. However, I cannot blind myself to the reality that every single country and every society within every single country has a multitude of individually bad things. No utopia exists anywhere on earth. The totality of the positives of the United States stack up impressively against the totality of the positives in any other country. Maybe the totality of its negatives are also impressive - impressively horrible. I couldn’t argue with that. But it has always been so. It will always be so. And it will be so everywhere else, too. > > What has happened throughout history is that countries borrow (adapt, steal, imitate) positives from each other. That will continue. The U.S. will borrow good things from Sweden and Denmark. And Sweden and Denmark will borrow good things from the U.S. For the foreseeable future living standards will improve net all over the world. No decline is in sight. The bad stuff will continue to dominate headlines, also as has been true forever. Good. Let’s all get mad about them and work to change them. But that’s been exactly the process since the Industrial Revolution. Nothing has changed today. Nothing. First of all, I chose 1965, as I was putting into your life time. As for the Great Depression, again, it affected the whole world, and it was in fact one of the catalysts to spur change. However that may be. I see your point. And I respect that. And agree to a certain extent. I guess the difference is that I’m observing things with some alarm. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/233 "2013-12-26T04:40:54Z")
Detroit’s problems are Detroit’s not the US’s. This is a dynamic country of creative distruction. We don’t hold onto the past just because “things have always been like this”. Detroit started out as nothing a little over a hundred years ago, and it may end as nothing a hundred years hence. I live near San Jose, CA. The largest city that sits inside what is known as Silicon Valley. In 1950, San Jose had 95,000 residence and was mostly an agricultural economy. Today, it has more than 10x that many people, and it’s mostly a technology economy. The median household income is \> $90k/year. If you want to make a case that the Americans were better off in 1965 than they are now, let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/234 "2013-12-26T05:23:50Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’ve had a few discussions with people who claim the US is circling the drain … I’ve noticed that quite often it’s nothing more than wishful thinking, although they always deny it. But I’ve heard the same claims of the US going down the train in the 1970s, in the 1980s, in the … well, you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/235 "2013-12-26T06:29:22Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > So Riga, when in US history was it better than it is now? NEVER, of course. It just gets better from one day to the next. Strange that it isn’t recognized by the International Democratic Index, though. I put it down to jealousy. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/236 "2013-12-26T06:37:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Detroit’s problems are Detroit’s not the US’s. Detroit! The prototype of a modern, American city! By the time every city is taken under Detroit’s benevolent wings you can begin converting the rest of the world as well! I can hardly wait till it reaches my city! Oh joy and prosperity! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/237 "2013-12-26T07:13:38Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Detroit! The prototype of a modern, American city! By the time every city is taken under Detroit’s benevolent wings you can begin converting the rest of the world as well! I can hardly wait till it reaches my city! Oh joy and prosperity! 😛 Do you have anything of substance to post, or are you just going to continue with snide comments? ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/238 "2013-12-26T08:03:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you have anything of substance to post, or are you just going to continue with snide comments? Sorry if you don’t you like Detroit. I think it’s wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/239 "2013-12-26T12:53:07Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > NEVER, of course. It just gets better from one day to the next. Strange that it isn’t recognized by the International Democratic Index, though. I put it down to jealousy. The International Democracy Index has been published since 2006. [2006](http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf) - the U.S. ranked 17th. [2008](http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy%20Index%202008.pdf) - the U.S. ranked 18th. [2010](http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy_Index_2010_web.pdf) - the U.S. ranked 17th. [2012](https://portoncv.gov.cv/dhub/porton.por_global.open_file?p_doc_id=1034) - the U.S. ranked 21st. What happened in 2012? > [@](#): > > US democracy has been adversely affected by a deepening of the polarisation of the political scene and political brinkmanship and paralysis. Oh. What a crisis. I expect to be in the gulag by week’s end, because the parties say mean things about each other. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/240 "2013-12-26T13:24:34Z")
So… US democracy is worse off because US citizens, and their elected representatives, are using the democratic framework and processes to debate and decide upon issues that are currently polarizing to the citizenry. Therefore, I guess the US is worse off _solely because_ there are issues polarizing to the citizenry. Got it. (Are there enough rolleyes smilies in the universe for this one?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976.md?page=13)