# Is the US becoming a banana republic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976 "2013-12-10T14:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/81 "2013-12-11T14:49:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It’s unfortunate that the Alternet article insisted on putting the nonsensical “Banana Republic” into its title. It’s also unfortunate that OP chose to copy that silly claim into his OP. > > _ **But especially unfortunate is that Dopers continue their practice of attacking a stupid “headline” so they can ignore the substance of an article.** _ Yes, America is still #1 in many ways; and No, it’s obviously not a “banana republic.” But in some important ways, it has fallen behind the rest of the developed world. Where once it was a shining beacon, it is increasingly becoming a pariah and a laughingstock. > > Nitpick: I assume “new titles” includes books which originated in other countries, but which have UK editions. If so, a raw _per capita_ figure would NOT be a proper basis for comparison. I read the article, noted the lack of citations and a number of claims in which it is _factually_ incorrect, and went on with the discussion. What else do you want? As a person who has lived in “the south” his entire life, the claim that it’s a “third world banana republic” is asinine. Why the need to delve further into the screed that was linked in the OP if it’s going to make idiotic claims such as that? Then there’s this: > [@](#): > > “Robust public investment had been a key to US prosperity in the previous century. It was then considered a basic part of the social contract as well as of Economics 101. As just about everyone knew in those days, citizens paid taxes to fund worthy initiatives that the private sector wouldn’t adequately or efficiently supply. Roadways and scientific research were examples. In the post–World War II years, the country invested great sums of money in its interstate highways and what were widely considered the best education systems in the world, while research in well-funded government labs led to inventions like the Internet. The resulting world-class infrastructure, educated workforce, and technological revolution fed a robust private sector.” In the 19th century, robust **private** investment turned the US from an agrarian state to the worlds largest industrial power in a 75-year period. That was basic Economics 101. The argument that is being made is being supported by citations that were true for just the post-war period, completely ignoring the larger fact that American industrial and infrastructure improvements are mostly privately funded. The US still invests “great sums of money in its interstate highways” and its “education systems”, but, _again_, the US has NEVER scored in the higher percentiles in international education comparisons, so the depiction of the US as having the “best education system” in the world at one point in the past is, again, not supported by any evidence. I could go on, and the author does get some facts right, but it’s not worth picking over. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/82 "2013-12-11T14:55:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The article contained some flawed claims but … Did you even condescend to read it? > > Anyway, I’ll answer your question here … if/when you answer my question to you in “Republicans are taking away my unemployment for my own good.” I read it. It was a load of hyperbolic horseshit, an attempt to use faulty statistics to make support the writers already predefined position. If you want to decry the fact that 'dopers have focused on the banana republic aspect then perhaps YOU should read the article yourself, since it’s the recurring theme of the thing. Not only are we a banana republic, but we are apparently a BROKEN banana republic to boot. Why should anyone take seriously an article full of hogsheads of hyperbolic horseshit (without even the clever use of alliteration :p). Even so, if YOU actually read the thread, you will see that most of the major points of the article have been addressed by various 'dopers in this thread. Basically, the author of that article attempts a verbal shell game, claiming that we are a broken banana republic because of this (cherry picked and unsupported) stat or that one, most of which either are a distortion, and exaggeration or something that the US NEVER was a world leader in. The bottom line, previously addressed, is that the US doesn’t have to be at the top of ever category, and the very nature of our country is going to preclude us EVER being at the top of every one of the authors pet cherry picked categories of greatness because of how diverse we are, with people from literally every nation on earth…hundreds of millions of them. Trying an apples to aardvarks comparison between the US and small, mainly ethnically/culturally/socially and from a religious aspect homogenous is ridiculous if you are looking at the stats this guy is attempting to use to ‘prove’ we are a ‘broken banana republic’. We don’t have high speed rail and that’s a factor in our broken-ness and banana republic-esque quality? 😛 Basically, if you feel there is some worth in the article it’s on you to do what the OP didn’t do…cut and paste out what you think is relevant and show why you think it is. Trying to say that people didn’t read the article and are focused mainly on the OPs title isn’t really making your case. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/83 "2013-12-11T15:15:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Where once it was a shining beacon, it is increasingly becoming a pariah and a laughingstock. [Pariah? Laughingstock?](http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/1/survey/15/) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/84 "2013-12-11T15:22:22Z")
Nice link, Ravenman. I clicked on the “World’s leading superpower” link and was surprised to find out that 55% of the people think that Spain is going to supplant the US as the dominant superpower… until I realized that I was reading the chart incorrectly. :o ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/85 "2013-12-11T15:36:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Pariah? Laughingstock?](http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/1/survey/15/) Interesting that we have such low regard in Turkey. I’ve been there and that wasn’t the impression I got of the folks there, who seemed to like Americans. Of course this was decades ago, so maybe the attitudes have shifted since the 2 Gulf Wars and the invasion of Afghanistan? The other interesting one I thought was Germany…I thought that after the cold war was over attitudes had shifted, but looks like we rank the same there as with the Venezuela and just about Russia (never big fans of the US). 😛 I don’t see the UK on that list either, which is odd. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/86 "2013-12-11T15:46:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Interesting that we have such low regard in Turkey. I’ve been there and that wasn’t the impression I got of the folks there, who seemed to like Americans. Of course this was decades ago, so maybe the attitudes have shifted since the 2 Gulf Wars and the invasion of Afghanistan? The other interesting one I thought was Germany…I thought that after the cold war was over attitudes had shifted, but looks like we rank the same there as with the Venezuela and just about Russia (never big fans of the US). 😛 I don’t see the UK on that list either, which is odd. The UK is listed as “Britain”, 58% favorable. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/87 "2013-12-11T15:47:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Interesting that we have such low regard in Turkey. I’ve been there and that wasn’t the impression I got of the folks there, who seemed to like Americans. The Iraq war in particular totally tanked Turks’ approval of the US. We indeed used to be very popular in Turkey. No more. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/88 "2013-12-11T15:48:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I don’t see the UK on that list either, which is odd. Britain. 58%. > [@Ravenman](#): > > The Iraq war in particular totally tanked Turks’ approval of the US. The indeed used to be very popular in Turkey. No more. And yet turkey remains very popular in the US. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/89 "2013-12-11T15:50:10Z")
Yeah, I saw that when I was clicking through the list of individual countries and viewing it that way. I guess we are hitting a low point with our British brethren and sistren atm. Looking at this and comparing it with China’s favor-ability or even the EU, however, is educational…especially to folks who think the US is a pariah in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/90 "2013-12-11T15:52:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Iraq war in particular totally tanked Turks’ approval of the US. The indeed used to be very popular in Turkey. No more. The data goes back only to 2002, at which time Turkey was 30% favorable. The run-up to war was already in effect then, it’s a shame they didn’t conduct the poll in '00 or '01 for a better comparison. Britain was 75% in 2002. Those were the days… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/91 "2013-12-11T15:53:52Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, I saw that when I was clicking through the list of individual countries and viewing it that way. I guess we are hitting a low point with our British brethren and sistren atm. Looking at this and comparing it with China’s favor-ability or even the EU, however, is educational…especially to folks who think the US is a pariah in the world. What’s really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with _EU member states._ But anyway, who needs data when you can post unsubstantiated slams against the US in GD… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/92 "2013-12-11T15:56:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with _EU member states._ Makes sense if you think about it in light of recent fiscal developments. It’s popular with some of the countries that were helped during their various issues, but less popular with the nations doing the helping. I thought reading the top countries that favor China and looking at the large number below 50% was interesting…I didn’t realize that they has such a low favor rating in the US. Woof. > [@](#): > > But anyway, who needs data when you can post unsubstantiated slams against the US in GD… Ah, you never need data to slam the US in GD. ;p ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/93 "2013-12-11T15:57:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with _EU member states._ > > But anyway, who needs data when you can post unsubstantiated slams against the US in GD… And how it’s trending downward for [every single one of them.](http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/28/group/3/) That spells trouble. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/94 "2013-12-11T16:01:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And how it’s trending downward for [every single one of them.](http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/28/group/3/) That spells trouble. Might they be headed toward “pariah” or “laughingstock” status? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/95 "2013-12-11T16:02:10Z")
I would definitely say the EU has reached “Banana Republic” status. It seems to be more likely to fall apart than the US. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/96 "2013-12-11T16:08:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Might they be headed toward “pariah” or “laughingstock” status? :eek: At least in the eyes of Pakistan and Turkey, absolutely. > [@XT](#): > > Makes sense if you think about it in light of recent fiscal developments. It’s popular with some of the countries that were helped during their various issues, but less popular with the nations doing the helping. It doesn’t seem to be: Greece was 33% favorable, Spain 46%. Portugal, Cyprus, and Ireland weren’t polled. Meanwhile, the nation doing most of the helping, Germany, is 60% favorable. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/97 "2013-12-11T16:09:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > At least in the eyes of Pakistan and Turkey, absolutely. > > It doesn’t seem to be: Greece was 33% favorable, Spain 46%. Portugal, Cyprus, and Ireland weren’t polled. > > Meanwhile, the nation doing most of the helping, Germany, is 60% favorable. Germany is dropping though…and they (and France) would tend to have higher ratings because, basically, it’s their baby and they get the most benefit out of it. ETA: But you are right…the data doesn’t back up my off the cuff assumption. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/98 "2013-12-11T16:35:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with _EU member states._ I dunno…the US has a pretty low favorability among many of _its_ member states. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/99 "2013-12-11T17:10:10Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I dunno…the US has a pretty low favorability among many of _its_ member states. 🙂 Hey, what’s a little talk of secession between friends! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976/100 "2013-12-15T06:27:38Z")
> [@](#): > > The story was largely the same in defeated Nazi Germany, … which all emerged from American occupation with constitutions that look little like the one Madison and the other framers wrote. This article was inaccurate on two points: 1. The German Basic Law wasn’t drafted by Americans. It was drafted by Germans in the western sector of occupied Germany, drawing heavily on Germany’s pre-Nazi constitutional traditions. 2. Germany wasn’t just under American occupation; it was under US-UK-French-Soviet occupation. All four occupying countries had to approve the Basic Law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-becoming-a-banana-republic/675976.md?page=6)