# Is the US in decline? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905 "2010-12-12T17:49:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/121 "2010-12-23T17:26:53Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann Furthermore, American businesses, after taxes, were the wealthiest, most financially secure, and had the highest profits in the world back in the 1950’s/1960’s. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Obviously, that was all because we weren’t letting in any dark skinned immigrants, and … You are certainly welcome to your opinion, although I vehemently disagree with you. In my opinion, the massive immigration into the USA causing over spending, huge debt, and many other troubles, is a problem regardless of race. In my opinion, we are letting in too many unskilled uneducated immigrants, of any color, regardless of skin color. In my opinion, skin color is totally irrelevant. We just dont need, and can not afford, millions more unskilled uneducated foreign immigrants. Furthermore, if **YOU** want to discuss\*\* race\*\*, why dont **you** start another topic? Regardless, the United States, and the American worker, peaked in their wealth and in its power in the 1960’s, and what the USA is doing now is overpopulating, going into debt, losing its good jobs, and self-destructing. The only way for the USA and its workers to regain great jobs, wealth, a strong dollar, and power is to go return to the old policies: tariffs and less immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/122 "2010-12-23T17:36:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If only we were smart enough to force other countries to buy almost exclusively from us (possibly a periodic bombing of their industrial capacity and infrastructure?) The USA does not need to force anyone to buy or sell. A return to the **tariff system** would require a “tax”, or a fee, to be paid by other countries if they want to sell “certain” products (competing products) in the United States. No one would be, or ever was, ever forced other people to buy, or sell. It is not unlike a sales tax placed upon some(competing) foreign made goods. The tariff system worked, and worked pretty well, for nearly 200 years in the United States from the 1770’s up to the 1970’s. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/123 "2010-12-23T18:23:31Z")
[QUOTE=Susanann] The USA does not need to force anyone to buy or sell. [/QUOTE] We would if you want to go back to the Dream Time of American Manufacturing in the post WWII era, since the reason we did so well is that we had a virtual monopoly on manufacturing during that time. We no longer have such a monopoly, nor have we enjoyed it for decades now. > [@](#): > > A return to the tariff system would require a “tax”, or a fee, to be paid by other countries if they want to sell “certain” products (competing products) in the United States. I know what tariffs are. Leaving aside that there are no reputable economic experts that I know of who are advocating such a system as a viable alternative (in fact, quite the opposite), my question is why you think it would be helpful. What do YOU think it would do, what would be the real world effect of the US imposing such tariffs…and how extensive are the tariffs you are proposing? > [@](#): > > The tariff system worked, and worked pretty well, for nearly 200 years in the United States from the 1770’s up to the 1970’s. You are comparing apples to oranges and making sweeping statements that simply aren’t true. ‘The tariff system’ worked in some cases in some vertical markets for much of that period because of very specific circumstances…it wasn’t a panacea silver bullet, and there were plenty of downsides. As an across the board ‘fix’ for what you obviously perceive as problems in the US it would be pretty much a disaster all around. Raising tariffs high enough to bring back US manufacturing in any sort of meaningful way would certainly have other countries who are US trading partners enacting the same in retaliation against us. They could (and almost certainly would) also pull their investment in the US out and restructure their own markets (China, India and Europe could buy and sell more exclusively to each other and simply by-pass US markets both import and export). The real world effect would be that the cost would rise for goods and services and the variety and quantity would decline, especially in the short term. You have to realize that if a US company was forced to build a manufacturing plant for building Walmart widgets that are currently produced in China, that you have a large initial capital cost for that facility, plus you either have to highly automate it (which means your precious low skill manufacturing jobs wouldn’t be coming back in any sort of volume to the US) or hire a bunch of American’s making substantially more than your average Chinese worker is going to make…right? What do you suppose that would do to the cost of those widgets, leaving aside the economic chaos a plan such as yours would wreak on both the US and global economy? If the easy answer was just imposing tariffs, why do you think that only populist types advocate it? I mean, if it was that easy and it made sense, why do so many economics experts think it’s a bad idea? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/124 "2010-12-23T18:27:54Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > You are certainly welcome to your opinion, although I vehemently disagree with you. > > In my opinion, the massive immigration into the USA causing over spending, huge debt, and many other troubles, is a problem regardless of race. In my opinion, we are letting in too many unskilled uneducated immigrants, of any color, regardless of skin color. In my opinion, skin color is totally irrelevant. We just dont need, and can not afford, millions more unskilled uneducated foreign immigrants. > > Furthermore, if **YOU** want to discuss\*\* race\*\*, why dont **you** start another topic? Do they not have sarcasm where you come from? ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/125 "2010-12-23T18:49:06Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > The “state” has already done that!!!, by dismantling tariffs, changing tax and trade laws, and allowing American corporations to move our factories and jobs to the cheapest places CommunistChina/asia/mexico of production, under the guise of “free trade”. > > When the “state” got out of the way, business then moved its jobs to where(asia) the worlds lowest cost labor is and where business could maximize profits. > > As long as we continue with “free trade” and as long as we do not return to the tariff system, then the US will continue to lose jobs, continue to lose manufacturing, continue to go deeper into debt and continue to lose the value of the US Dollar, and continue to decline. Nothing else will change this certain future. Good Post Susanann. I should clarify my position more. I mean that the state needs to stay out of business way, but business also need to all stay in the USA, and not use their gains for investments abroad. The money is not being returned to the USA when it goes offshore, but being used to build new plants elsewhere. From a patriotic point of view, one could say they are being unpatriotic and border line treasonous when their actions endanger the state and its people, and in that case, just like Manning, the state needs to step in. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/126 "2010-12-23T19:16:31Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Furthermore, if **YOU** want to discuss\*\* race\*\*, why dont **you** start another topic? :dubious: You don’t **really** think the issue of race can be completely separated from the issue of immigration, do you? Nor that any discussion of immigration politics that ignores racial factors is meaningful? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/127 "2010-12-23T20:04:45Z")
Originally Posted by Susanann Furthermore, if YOU want to discuss race, why dont you start another topic? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: You don’t **really** think the issue of race can be completely separated from the issue of immigration, do you? Nor that any discussion of immigration politics that ignores racial factors is meaningful? Yes!!! I **REALLY** honestly and completely do! RAce is **NOT!!!** an issue and race is totally irrelevant. The simple fact is, that in the year 2010, with the USA losing jobs, with unemployment around 20%, we simply do not need ANY additional foreign immigrants, ANY additional foreign job seekers of ANY color. All immigration, legal and illegal, should stop until we need more people. “If” an when, the United States can not find enough job applicants, “if” and “when” the USA needs more foreigners to move here to homestead empty unused land, “if” and “when” the USA actually needs more foreign people moving here, then, and “only” then, should we open up immigration, and when we do, it should not be based on race at all, but on being disease free, no criminal records, education, unique skills, literacy, demonstration of economic self-sufficiency, and an honest willingness to assimilate into the American culture along with obeying and honoring of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Until and unless the USA adopts a sane immigration policy as described in the preceding 2 paragraphs, then the USA will continue to decline. This is my last reply to you about race, I will not discuss race again on this thread. Now, Get back on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/128 "2010-12-23T20:06:51Z")
Immigration is **NOT!!!** an issue and immigration is totally irrelevant. Therefore, we will not be discussing immigration any more in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/129 "2010-12-23T20:15:37Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > I mean that the state needs to stay out of business way, but business also need to all stay in the USA, and not use their gains for investments abroad. > > From a patriotic point of view, one could say they are being unpatriotic and border line treasonous when their actions endanger the state and its people, and in that case, just like Manning, the state needs to step in. Business, corporations, companies, have no allegiance to the USA, they only worship profits. Corporations have no vested interest in individual Americans, nor in American freedom. Profits is the only thing that matters to corporations. “Corporations” have no rights, and corporations obviously feel no responsibility to the freedom and wealth of American citizens. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights were not written for “companies”. Allowing companies to continue to do what they want at the **expense** of American citizens, in the name of “free trade”, will result in America continuing in decline. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/130 "2010-12-23T20:25:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Immigration is **NOT!!!** an issue and immigration is totally irrelevant. Therefore, we will not be discussing immigration any more in this thread. Immigration **IS** and issue, and immigration **IS** relevant to why the United States is in decline today. Too many people, too many job seekers for fewer and fewer jobs, too many foreigners who cannot support themselves and who require more and more government aid causing higher and higher taxes, requiring more and more police and more prisons, etc. **IS** a major factor as to why the United States is in decline today. Anyone who does not understand how and why immigration/overpopulation today is causing higher costs and higher taxes, more debt, and higher unemployment then you will not understand why the US is in decline today. Immigration is 1 of 2 reasons why the United States is in decline. Cutting up a smaller and smaller pie, into more and more pieces, inevitably results in a lower standard of living for all Americans. . ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/131 "2010-12-23T20:29:14Z")
Perhaps. But TYPING IT LIKE **THIS**!!! fourteen times is not going to convince anyone. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/132 "2010-12-23T20:38:35Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Originally Posted by Susanann > Furthermore, if YOU want to discuss race, why dont you start another topic? > Yes!!! I **REALLY** honestly and completely do! > > RAce is **NOT!!!** an issue and race is totally irrelevant. The simple fact is, that in the year 2010, with the USA losing jobs, with unemployment around 20%, we simply do not need ANY additional foreign immigrants, ANY additional foreign job seekers of ANY color. All immigration, legal and illegal, should stop until we need more people. :rolleyes: No, **Susanann,** race can’t be taken out of this discussion, because: 1. It is, certainly, entirely possible to have completely non-racist economic or environmental reasons to be anti-immigration. Some of those reasons are very persuasive. 2. OTOH, on the ground in America, there are relatively few anti-immigration activists who do not have any racist reasons. If the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada instead of Mexico, the Minutemen would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/133 "2010-12-23T23:16:47Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > msmith’s point and mine is that you can keep the poor divided against each other. You said history says this is wrong. Nothing you just posted shows where history shows we’re wrong. > > Ever been to Mexico? That quote was by Jay Gould about 150 years ago. And we have made a lot of progress since then. Medicare, medicaid, womens rights, minority rights, social security, universal education, ending slavery, ending jim crow, minimum wage, labor laws, environmental laws, police brutality laws, progressive income taxes, etc. So it is true to a degree (I know tons of poor white people whose attitudes would easily fall under the description of poor people being bought and directed by the rich). By by and large we do march towards a more just society. Mexico is implementing universal health care. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/134 "2010-12-23T23:21:28Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Immigration **IS** and issue, and immigration **IS** relevant to why the United States is in decline today. > > Too many people, too many job seekers for fewer and fewer jobs, too many foreigners who cannot support themselves and who require more and more government aid causing higher and higher taxes, requiring more and more police and more prisons, etc. **IS** a major factor as to why the United States is in decline today. > > Anyone who does not understand how and why immigration/overpopulation today is causing higher costs and higher taxes, more debt, and higher unemployment then you will not understand why the US is in decline today. > > Immigration is 1 of 2 reasons why the United States is in decline. > > Cutting up a smaller and smaller pie, into more and more pieces, inevitably results in a lower standard of living for all Americans. Except that the exact opposite had been consistently true through two hundred years of American history. We’re a nation that rose to greatness via immigration. If we’re declining maybe it’s because we’re turning away the immigrants we would have welcomed in the past. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/135 "2010-12-24T04:41:14Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > That quote was by Jay Gould about 150 years ago. And we have made a lot of progress since then. Medicare, medicaid, womens rights, minority rights, social security, universal education, ending slavery, ending jim crow, minimum wage, labor laws, environmental laws, police brutality laws, progressive income taxes, etc. And now we’re cutting back on education spending, medicaid programs are being cut, minimum wage laws are driving the move to automate and offshore jobs (and don’t tell me a lot of you aren’t complaining about that!), and the President just signed a tax cut extension that’ll keep our taxes the lowest they’ve been since what… the 1960s? In other words when it comes to economic issues, you guys are losing ground. > [@](#): > > So it is true to a degree (I know tons of poor white people whose attitudes would easily fall under the description of poor people being bought and directed by the rich). By by and large we do march towards a more just society. > > Mexico is implementing universal health care. Goody for them. That won’t do anything to resolve the issue of the fabulously rich lording it over Mexico’s throngs of hopelessly poor people. They just got thrown a bone. Come back in 20 years, then 50, then 100 and see if the plutocracy that exists down there has been put to an end. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/136 "2010-12-24T04:42:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Immigration is **NOT!!!** an issue and immigration is totally irrelevant. Therefore, we will not be discussing immigration any more in this thread. Ahahahahahahahahahahaahah!!! Who are you to say what’s an issue and what we’ll discuss? Are you a moderator? I ought to discuss immigration just to defy you, though that might come across as trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/137 "2010-12-24T16:46:52Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > And now we’re cutting back on education spending, medicaid programs are being cut, minimum wage laws are driving the move to automate and offshore jobs (and don’t tell me a lot of you aren’t complaining about that!), and the President just signed a tax cut extension that’ll keep our taxes the lowest they’ve been since what… the 1960s? > > In other words when it comes to economic issues, you guys are losing ground. It’s the political cycle. Democrats make people rich enough to vote Republican. And then the Republicans make them poor enough to go back to voting Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/138 "2010-12-25T14:33:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Except that the exact opposite had been consistently true through two hundred years of American history. We’re a nation that rose to greatness via immigration. > > If we’re declining maybe it’s because we’re turning away the immigrants we would have welcomed in the past. There were alot more restrictions in terms of immigration before than there is now in the US. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/139 "2010-12-25T17:43:52Z")
As an American, I think we have lost our way. WE have finished the big projects of the 1960’s (like the Interstate Highways), and we are facing big limits (as the cost of oil escalates). But we have so many riches here-we need to start paying attention to our own nation again-instead of indulging in pointless wars abroad. Case in point: had we spent one tenth of what we did on these two wars (on synthetic oil) we would probably be independent of the ME oil now. Our aging infrastucture is crumbling-and we are building schools in Afghanistan-a place of NO strategic importance to us. WE should withdraw our troops from around the world, and negotiate with other nations on the basis of BENEFITTING our nation. If the Chinese want to be the world policeman, let them. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905/140 "2010-12-25T18:55:43Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > As an American, I think we have lost our way. WE have finished the big projects of the 1960’s (like the Interstate Highways), and we are facing big limits (as the cost of oil escalates). But we have so many riches here-we need to start paying attention to our own nation again-instead of indulging in pointless wars abroad. You should have voted for Algore, **ralph**. He wouldn’t have engaged in pointless and expensive conquest, like the Republicans did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-decline/563905.md?page=8)