# Is the US in serious trouble, trouble so bad that our survival as a nation is very much in question? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786 "2010-02-20T18:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/101 "2010-02-24T16:09:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The Rich are ruining America are they? The people who invent stuff, run businesses, create wealth and made something out of themselves are the ones destroying America? You do understand, I hope, that many, probably most, rich Americans do not meet the description in your second sentence; and that even those who **do** are still capable of doing society more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/102 "2010-02-24T16:31:42Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > I do think that America as an idea is very much in jeopardy–one of its defining tendencies is that it’s supposed to be the city on the hill, the last great hope for human civilization. That’s also a defining tendency of Chinese civilization. One of the most common names for China in Mandarin Chinese is Zhongguo, which means “central country”. It was a defining tendency of Greek civilization. They called all non-Greeks barbarians, because non-Greek speech sounded like babble to them. My point is, you see that kind of idea pop up in a lot of very different civilizations. It’s not unique to America. Is it really such a good thing to think of one’s own culture as the last great hope for human civilization, and all others as inferior in some way? People who talk this way when visiting foreign countries seem rather obnoxious. It’s a natural, human thing to do, but so are murder and rape. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/103 "2010-02-24T17:20:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You do understand, I hope, that many, probably most, rich Americans do not meet the description in your second sentence; and that even those who **do** are still capable of doing society more harm than good. And I hope you understand that there are a lot of wealthy people who do not work for investment banks and do not show up drunk on TMZ. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/104 "2010-02-24T18:31:27Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > It’s kind of like how there is less crime now than there has been for many years, but there’s more 24-hour news coverage of the crime that does happen. It makes it seem like crime is more of a threat now, even though it isn’t. The reason crime seems to be down is because our jails are all full. We can’t build jails fast enough. We actually have more criminals but crime is down because we lock them away. We house more prisoners then any other country in the world. I think the media encourages crime by showcasing it so much. On cable they even have reality shows like ‘Inside the Walls’. The favorite shows in jail are the ones where they learn the tools of forensic science and how to be better criminals. Also the ones they may have been filmed like on Cops. Actually a lot of shows are about crime. Law and Order, CSI, Criminal Minds is one of my favorites. Then there is World Dumbest Criminals, NCIS, Forensic Files, Cold Case files, The First 48 and these are just the ones that pop in my head. Crime is up and our new federal prison is full of white collar criminals. A friend of mine that owns a local pizza joint delivers pizza to the prison. On the taxpayers dime. Crime is big business all the way around. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/105 "2010-02-24T18:35:05Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Crime is up and our new federal prison is full of white collars criminals. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/106 "2010-02-24T18:42:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And I hope you understand that there are a lot of wealthy people who do not work for investment banks and do not show up drunk on TMZ. Right, I’m pretty well-to-do and I’m a software engineer working, at least some of the time, on ecologically-friendly transportation projects. My wife is an elementary schoolteacher. I lean generally liberal politically. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/107 "2010-02-24T21:25:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Wrong. I think you should read the data. Pretty amazing we beat out China. [Incarceration in the United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/108 "2010-02-24T21:26:41Z")
I love that whenever you get called on something you made up you provide a cite that supports (maybe) some other completely different point you made. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/109 "2010-02-24T22:46:06Z")
Crime rates have been falling pretty steadily over the past several decades. Here’s a graph (on Wikipedia, but from the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics) that shows it: [Crime rates](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ncsucr2.gif). Yes, the NUMBER of prisoners incarcerated has been increasing, but the RATES of crime have been decreasing. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/110 "2010-02-25T00:13:02Z")
> [@mecaenas](#): > > That’s only in moments of mutual masterbation between American jingoists, the rest of us in the developed world never thought so. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, remember, we could **have** a revolution and still survive as a nation. France has, several times. Whether Kingdom, Empire, or any numbered Republic, France remains France. A nation is not its political constitution. This. I’m an American national, not an American communicant. America is my land of birth, but any religion of Americanism is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/111 "2010-02-25T03:22:35Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Crime rates have been falling pretty steadily over the past several decades. Here’s a graph (on Wikipedia, but from the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics) that shows it: [Crime rates](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ncsucr2.gif). > > Yes, the NUMBER of prisoners incarcerated has been increasing, but the RATES of crime have been decreasing. You are correct, The crime rate did go down. The three strikes law is working in keeping repeat offenders in prison for life. Without one in 17 of our male population behind bars our crime rate would be much higher is what I was trying to say. In 2006, ((($68,747,203,000))) was spent on corrections. “The average annual operating cost per state inmate in 2001 was $22,650, or $62.05 per day; among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it was $22,632 per inmate, or $62.01 per day.” Housing the approximately 500,000 people in jail awaiting trial who can’t afford bail costs $9 billion a year. To ease jail overcrowding over 10 counties every year consider building new jails. As an example Lubbock County, Texas has decided to build a $110 million megajail to ease jail overcrowding. Jail costs an average of $60 a day nationally. In Broward County, Florida supervised pretrial release costs about $7 a day per person while jail costs $115 a day. The jail system costs a quarter of every county tax dollar in Broward County, and is the single largest expense to the county taxpayer. States spend an estimated 7 percent of their budget on corrections. The cost of medical care for inmates is growing by 10 percent annually. Article from Wikpedia. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/112 "2010-02-25T05:05:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So you believe your “gut feeling” trumps actual economic data and analysis?😕 Actually, yes. Especially so when economists often cannot agree when using the same data. > [@](#): > > The general sense is that we are moving away from being a nation that actually invents and builds stuff into a nation that just pays a small percentage of the work force a lot of money to move numbers around spreadsheets (or invent laws for moving those numbers around, enforce the compliance of those laws or provide advisory services on how to manuever through that system of laws). And not surprisingly, those people will come up with ever increasingly complicated schemes for moving those numbers around until periodically the system is no longer sustainable and it crashes. > > What this will mean is that you will have a larger and increasingly more educated workforce unable to find meaningful work. They will put ever increasing pressure on the government to provide support, driving debt ever higher. We’ve gone from actually building things to shuffling paper for those who do the building. You’ve supported my assertion. What I will add is how much Americans don’t talk, and listen, to each other, especially our ‘leaders.’ I’m told the health summit tomorrow is already bogged down by one party arguing about the size and design of the table, whether there will be cameras in the room during lunch, and a demand they receive a complete tour of Blair House before anything starts. It’s the same party that has done no work in the Senate while the House has passed along almost 300 bills to them for debate. When petty, political partisanship trumps the business of the country, when so many Americans believe the bullshit, when so many of those same Americans refuse to believe documented facts (preferring the mantra of media nutjobs), when it’s more important to put tax dollars into tax incentives into companies hoping they will hire the unemployed rather than paying the people directly, it really is hard to think this too shall pass. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/113 "2010-02-25T10:54:30Z")
There was a time when America flooded the world with products and innovation now all we produce are “financial instruments” “bundled assets” “derivatives” nothing but fancy ways of moving fake assets and paper profits around in circles. Folks money is illusionary it doesn’t really exist with out tangible things like goods, factories, industrial capacity to back it up. All we have now are numbers on balance sheets. I remember George Will stating how good it was for us to loose jobs overseas because Americans shouldn’t be doing that kind of work anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Stowed\_Bob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stowed_bob/32/3312_2.png) [@Stowed\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stowed_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/114 "2010-02-25T11:05:24Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Oh we’ll survive. As long as you don’t mind the fact that they’ll be taking down the Statue of Liberty and replacing it with a statue of Mao Zedong. If they take down the Statue of Liberty, it’ll be to reuse the copper. They didn’t replace the Colossus of Rhodes with anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Random\_Design](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Random\_Design](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random_Design)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/115 "2010-02-25T12:59:09Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > The latter. 😛 > > I love how GM sold the Hummer corporation to the Chinese last year (_and what could be more American than a Hummer?_). We’re well on our way. Indeed, the Hummer is a representative symbol of American strength. [GM to shut down Hummer after China deal fizzles](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2416680420100224) I find it curious that some people here seem to think America can (will?) simply default on its debt without consequences. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/116 "2010-02-25T14:13:22Z")
> [@Random\_Design](#): > > Indeed, the Hummer is a representative symbol of American strength. > > [GM to shut down Hummer after China deal fizzles](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2416680420100224) > > I find it curious that some people here seem to think America can (will?) simply default on its debt without consequences. Do you think the deal fell through because of American debt or because demand for Hummers have been plumeting ever since gas prices spiked a few years back? > [@Icerigger](#): > > There was a time when America flooded the world with products and innovation now all we produce are “financial instruments” “bundled assets” “derivatives” nothing but fancy ways of moving fake assets and paper profits around in circles. People keep saying “we don’t make anything” but that is factually incorrect. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I get bored with the meme that rich people all invented and created important things and are getting what they deserve. With few exceptions, it is a joke. > I suppose if I emulate Paris Hilton ,I too can become successful. Perhaps I should copy the habits of the financial pros who looted the whole world and then got their fingers in the treasury. Those are successful people. You have it backwards. People became rich because they invented and created important things. Or they enjoyed great success in their careers. Paris Hilton gets to enjoy being a professional imbecile because her great grandfather created the Hilton Hotel chain. Attitudes like yours are the greatest threat to our countries economic future IMHO. Its this overwhelming sense of entitlement combined with a disdain and contempt for hard work. Your attempt to paint all successful businesses as corrupt investment banks or all wealthy people as idiot hieresses just provides you with an excuse to never accomplish anything. Rich People are a permenant, corrupt, impenetrable social class who want nothing more than to keep the good, decent, hardworking, common folk down. So guess what? You don’t have to study hard in school because school is a waste of time and money. You don’t have to work hard at your job because you are essentially a slave or indentured servent. And it’s perfectly ok to punish successful companies economically because they only got rich by stealing from the good, decent, hardworking, common folk ---
**Author:** ![Random\_Design](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Random\_Design](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random_Design)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/117 "2010-02-25T14:48:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do you think the deal fell through because of American debt or because demand for Hummers have been plumeting ever since gas prices spiked a few years back? I would suspect it fell through because someone realized they were buying a dud. Did your question have a point? The comment I made about America defaulting on debt without consequence had nothing to do with Hummer’s demise, not sure why you conflated the two. > [@msmith537](#): > > People keep saying “we don’t make anything” but that is factually incorrect. Well don’t hold out on us… what is American furnishing the world with? How do those figures compare with the past? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/118 "2010-02-25T16:55:43Z")
> [@Random\_Design](#): > > Well don’t hold out on us… what is American furnishing the world with? How do those figures compare with the past? > **[List of countries by GDP sector composition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition)** > > This is the list of countries by purely nominal gross domestic product (GDP) sector composition. The article has three main sectors: agricultural, industrial, and service. > Nominal GDP sector composition, 2015 (in millions of 2005 USD): 2005 prices are used similarly to 2010 constant prices in which they provide economic statistics where inflation is accounted for. > > Note: Figures may not total 100% due to non-allocated consumption not captured in sector-reported data. Take a look at the list of countries by GDP sector. What country has the largest industrial sector in the “composition in million dollars” table? Hint: United States=2,696,880, People’s Republic of China=1,208,272. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/119 "2010-02-25T17:12:39Z")
> [@Random\_Design](#): > > Indeed, the Hummer is a representative symbol of American strength. > > [GM to shut down Hummer after China deal fizzles](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2416680420100224) It’s not a symbol of America. It’s a truck sold by a private company. A truck that has become less popular since gas prices started to go up a couple of years ago. GM tried to sell off a brand that wasn’t doing well, and when it couldn’t, it decided to get rid of that brand. That’s something companies do. We’ve had automobile brands go away before. Plymouth went away in 2001. Geo went away in 1998. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786/120 "2010-02-25T17:21:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You have it backwards. People became rich because they invented and created important things. Or they enjoyed great success in their careers. Paris Hilton gets to enjoy being a professional imbecile because her great grandfather created the Hilton Hotel chain. You see the disconnect there? We’re not a meritocracy. Don’t pretend we are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-us-in-serious-trouble-trouble-so-bad-that-our-survival-as-a-nation-is-very-much-in-question/529786.md?page=7)