# Is the USA a "welfare state" like the right claims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764 "2012-04-24T00:07:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/1 "2012-04-24T00:07:39Z")
Or are we a Social Security/Medicare state? I maintain the latter. From my perspective about 85% of all social spending are for elderly entitlements. It seems the right wants to combine SS with “welfare” in order to demonize taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/2 "2012-04-24T00:33:19Z")
It depends on how you are defining welfare? Aren’t social security and medicare welfare programs by strict definition? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/3 "2012-04-24T00:37:32Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Or are we a Social Security/Medicare state? > > I maintain the latter. From my perspective about 85% of all social spending are for elderly entitlements. > > It seems the right wants to combine SS with “welfare” in order to demonize taxes. You seem thoughtful so I humbly submit this wiki page as a starting point: > **[Welfare state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state)** > > A welfare state is a form of government in which the state (or a well-established network of social institutions) protects and promotes the economic and social well-being of its citizens, based upon the principles of equal opportunity, equitable distribution of wealth, and public responsibility for citizens unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. > There is substantial variability in the form and trajectory of the welfare state across countries and regions. All wel... To surmise you correct that the right is demonizing things, but what they’ve demonized is the idea of social safety net. Welfare state isn’t a bad thing. It isn’t mothers with 9 kids on the dole buying fine automobiles. Never was. Welfare state simply means society has your back and helps you when you need it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/4 "2012-04-24T00:48:05Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > . . . Welfare state simply means society has your back and helps you when you need it. While I think this is true, and I agree with it, I wonder if “welfare state” as a term means something more than merely the existence of a social safety net. For instance, I’d say that we are, in fact, a “welfare state” because of the laws that require that hospital emergency rooms provide emergency medical treatment. It is the formal legal requirement, the fundamental obligation, the entitlement, that makes it more than just an option. It is a basic legal right. (And, since I’m in favor of that, I guess I’m a welfare statist.) ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/5 "2012-04-24T01:23:53Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > It depends on how you are defining welfare? Aren’t social security and medicare welfare programs by strict definition? Yeah, that’s got me confused, too. How does a “welfare state” differ from a “Social Security/Medicare state”? And why is the latter ok, but the former is not? ---
**Author:** ![DeepLiquid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deepliquid/32/14893_2.png) [@DeepLiquid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeepLiquid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/6 "2012-04-24T01:26:29Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Yeah, that’s got me confused, too. How does a “welfare state” differ from a “Social Security/Medicare state”? And why is the latter ok, but the former is not? You pay into social security and medicare before you draw on them. SSDI and medicaid are the ones you can draw on without paying into them. ---
**Author:** ![chloes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@chloes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chloes1)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/7 "2012-04-24T02:06:55Z")
I really hate splitting hairs with my betters, however… SSDI requires paying into whilst SSI does not. Both are for disabled, which you get depends on whether or worked long enough to qualify for SSDI. > [@DeepLiquid](#): > > You pay into social security and medicare before you draw on them. SSDI and medicaid are the ones you can draw on without paying into them. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/8 "2012-04-24T04:25:46Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > It seems the right wants to combine SS with “welfare” in order to demonize taxes. It’s more than that. IMO the right sees SS as a big pool of “dead” money that could be put to better use in the stock market or other private investment. They want to demonize it only to the extent that the pile ends up being liberated for private use. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/9 "2012-04-24T10:52:48Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Or are we a Social Security/Medicare state? Let’s have a cite for your title, please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/10 "2012-04-24T11:07:55Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > It’s more than that. IMO the right sees SS as a big pool of “dead” money that could be put to better use in the stock market or other private investment. They want to demonize it only to the extent that the pile ends up being liberated for private use. Well not necessarily. They want the middle class, and poor taxed. I mean do explain trickle down, but no trickle up? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/11 "2012-04-24T19:52:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Let’s have a cite for your title, please. Sheesh! Not even hard! [The Washington Examiner says we are.](http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/article/welfare-state-destroying-america/331016) ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/12 "2012-04-24T21:34:14Z")
> [@DeepLiquid](#): > > You pay into social security and medicare before you draw on them. SSDI and medicaid are the ones you can draw on without paying into them. I’m not sure how that’s inconsistent with what the right says. The right’s argument, as I understand it, is that entitlement expenditures threaten to overwhelm the budget. From the article linked by **Trinopus** : > [@](#): > > With health care costs rising and the population aging, America’s welfare-state obligations are bringing the country to its financial knees. If left unchecked, the growing debt burden will not only trigger runaway inflation and stifling taxes, but it will also threaten national security. > > Spending on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare alone currently account for 46 percent – or nearly half of – federal spending, excluding interest payments. Over the next 25 years, that percentage will explode to 66 percent, or close to two-thirds, according to the Congressional Budget Office.. SS/Medicare is not a savings account. The money I pay into SS/Medicare goes out to current recipients (and to pay interest on the debt, etc.). I can earn far more from SS/Medicare than I ever paid in. And the payments I receive are indexed to the consumer price index, not inflation. In other words, there’s very little actual relationship between what I pay into SS/Medicare, and what I receive. As I understand the right’s argument, that’s the problem. We’re paying more out than we’re receiving in. So I’m not trying to be disagreeable, but I don’t see how calling the US a “Social Security/Medicare state” undercuts the right’s argument. Can someone explain to me what I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/13 "2012-04-24T21:38:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sheesh! Not even hard! > > [The Washington Examiner says we are.](http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/article/welfare-state-destroying-america/331016) That’s the press. A paper of which I know absolutely nothing. Let’s see a cite of some modern conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/14 "2012-04-24T21:38:38Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > I maintain the latter. From my perspective about 85% of all social spending are for elderly entitlements. Just to add one thing to what’s already been said: I believe your 85% figure applies to federal spending. A serious critique of the relationship between individual finances and government policy also addresses state and local government spending. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/15 "2012-04-24T21:38:42Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Can someone explain to me what I’m missing? You failed to buy into the silly oversimplification and/or the distinction without a difference put out there in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/16 "2012-04-24T23:17:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That’s the press. A paper of which I know absolutely nothing. Let’s see a cite of some modern conservatives. Newt: [Unleashing Growth And Innovation Move Beyond Welfare State](http://www.newt.org/2011/11/21/unleashing-growth-and-innovation-move-beyond-welfare-state/) Romney: [“We’re becoming far more like a European social welfare state”](http://video.answers.com/romney-obama-turning-america-into-a-european-social-welfare-state-517331122) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/17 "2012-04-24T23:59:30Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Quote: > Spending on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare alone currently account for 46 percent – or nearly half of – federal spending, excluding interest payments. Over the next 25 years, that percentage will explode to 66 percent, or close to two-thirds, according to the Congressional Budget Office.. Thanks for quoting this. What an amazing display of right wing dishonesty! It puts “Obamacare” right up there with Medicare and Social Security as if current spending on it (Is there any besides planning and writing regulations?) is in any way comparable. BTW here is the wiki on [The Examiner.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Examiner) It is owned by the same people who own the Weekly Standard, which I hope friend **Quartz** has heard of, co-sponsored a debate, and has several NR conservatives writing for it. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/18 "2012-04-25T01:53:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > What an amazing display of right wing dishonesty! It puts “Obamacare” right up there with Medicare and Social Security as if current spending on it (Is there any besides planning and writing regulations?) is in any way comparable. Yes, there is “current” spending on Obamacare. For example, Obamacare funds the expansion of Medicare coverage for the uninsured in part with about $500 billion in cuts to Medicare Advantage. The cuts in Medicare Advantage are scheduled to start in October – a month before the election – but the benefits to the uninsured don’t start until 2014. The Obama admin launched what they called a “development program,” which will provide $8.3 billion in funding for Medicare Advantage, extending the program out past the November elections. [The GAO recently criticized the program and asked the White House to cancel it](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/auditors-call-on-obama-administration-to-cancel-medicare-bonuses-gop-sees-as-political/2012/04/22/gIQAvoFuaT_print.html). [And the Obama admin has diverted $500 million to the IRS to implement Obamacare](http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/220475-white-house-has-diverted-500m-to-irs-to-implement-health-law). There’s almost certainly been more spending on Obamacare, but those are the two that popped immediately to mind. Moreover, I suspect Obamacare was included because of the “future” aspect of the spending (i.e., “Over the next 25 years”). In 25 years, there will certainly be significant spending on Obamacare. So I don’t see what’s so “dishonest” about the statement. It neither says nor implies that _current_ spending on Obamacare approximates that of Social Security or Medicare. And because Obamacare will have significant costs in the future, it’s certainly fair to include it when calculating future costs. But even if there hadn’t been any spending on Obamacare, how would that support the OP’s premise? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/19 "2012-04-25T07:16:33Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Yes, there is “current” spending on Obamacare. For example, Obamacare funds the expansion of Medicare coverage for the uninsured in part with about $500 billion in cuts to Medicare Advantage. The cuts in Medicare Advantage are scheduled to start in October – a month before the election – but the benefits to the uninsured don’t start until 2014. The Obama admin launched what they called a “development program,” which will provide $8.3 billion in funding for Medicare Advantage, extending the program out past the November elections. [The GAO recently criticized the program and asked the White House to cancel it](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/auditors-call-on-obama-administration-to-cancel-medicare-bonuses-gop-sees-as-political/2012/04/22/gIQAvoFuaT_print.html). > > [And the Obama admin has diverted $500 million to the IRS to implement Obamacare](http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/220475-white-house-has-diverted-500m-to-irs-to-implement-health-law). > > There’s almost certainly been more spending on Obamacare, but those are the two that popped immediately to mind. > > Moreover, I suspect Obamacare was included because of the “future” aspect of the spending (i.e., “Over the next 25 years”). In 25 years, there will certainly be significant spending on Obamacare. > > So I don’t see what’s so “dishonest” about the statement. It neither says nor implies that _current_ spending on Obamacare approximates that of Social Security or Medicare. And because Obamacare will have significant costs in the future, it’s certainly fair to include it when calculating future costs. > > But even if there hadn’t been any spending on Obamacare, how would that support the OP’s premise? The quote specifically says “current spending”. If it had said spending over the next 25 years I wouldn’t have been outraged. $500 million is a drop in the Social Security / Medicare bucket. Medicare Advantage is the Bush giveaway to private insurers, right? Moving that money around is a good thing. Better to go to the uninsured than to insurers. As far as the question in the OP, obviously not. My daughter is now living in Germany. She gets health insurance for a relative song. He current German boyfriend and previous English boyfriend both went to college for free - and could hardly conceive that so many American students leave with massive debts. We’re no more a welfare state than we are socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764/20 "2012-04-25T08:58:01Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Newt: [Unleashing Growth And Innovation Move Beyond Welfare State](http://www.newt.org/2011/11/21/unleashing-growth-and-innovation-move-beyond-welfare-state/) > > Romney: [“We’re becoming far more like a European social welfare state”](http://video.answers.com/romney-obama-turning-america-into-a-european-social-welfare-state-517331122) Those’ll do nicely. Thank you. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-a-welfare-state-like-the-right-claims/619764.md?page=2)