# Is the USA the only country that even bothers with Intelligent Design bullshit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549 "2007-10-30T06:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/1 "2007-10-30T06:01:38Z")
I didn’t know which forum to choose for this. It seems to fit in just about any SDMB category except maybe “About This Message Board” or “Cafe Society”. Since it seemed this topic might get a little heated, I figured Great Debates is the place. By my sensitively-worded thread title, I guess you know my view on Intelligent Design. As far as I can tell, America is the only country concerned with the evolution “controversy”. Perhaps the best argument _against_ Intelligent Design would be ‘why are we the only country that gives a shit about it’? Perhaps I’m wrong. Does the Munich School Board want to push this alternative “explanation” as much as we do? Are the citizens of Madrid outraged that their students are only getting one side of the evolution story? ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/2 "2007-10-30T06:18:10Z")
Intelligent Design and other creationist ideas have some advocates here, but it’s further out on the fringes of debate (in my judgment). Perhaps this is partly to do with the greater prevalence of government subsidised “private” schools. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/3 "2007-10-30T07:44:27Z")
America is more religious than a lot of other modernizd countries. No debate there, really. The religious types feel threatened by evolution science, because they think it attacks their belief. The more religious types there are, the more they react to this perception of threat. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/4 "2007-10-30T08:25:59Z")
Here (Japan) the notion of intelligent design is completely foreign. I would venture a guess that the overwhelming majority of people never even heard of it. I was surprised to find out that there are even people who hold the view at all ([Design of Creation Society](http://www.dcsociety.org/)) but they would generally be perceived as lunatic Christian fringe types. With less that 1% of the population being Christian, lunatic or not, you can imagine that this is a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/5 "2007-10-30T08:31:43Z")
Double post. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/6 "2007-10-30T08:44:00Z")
I’ve seen some anti-evolutionists outside the university library, here. They’re universally ignored, though. It’s especially ironic, as Darwin studied here. ---
**Author:** ![essell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/34f0e0/32.png) [@essell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essell)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/7 "2007-10-30T08:51:54Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] I’ve seen some anti-evolutionists outside the university library, here. They’re universally ignored, though. It’s especially ironic, as Darwin studied here. [/QUOTE] I know this is anecdotal, but all the people I’ve talked to about ID over here place it in the same metaphorical bin as Scientology et al. Even the religious types see it as changing something that they didn’t want changed. They like creationism. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/8 "2007-10-30T11:19:20Z")
Some few advocates here in Germany, but not with any influence on public policy even on the local level. The main Christian churches are OK with evolution anyway. One major reason for introducing ID (né creationism) is absent in Germany: _Genesis_ is taught about in public schools (in religion class), so there is no need to smuggle it into biology class. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/9 "2007-10-30T11:52:58Z")
There’s the [Truth in Science](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_in_Science) group in the UK agitating for Intelligent Design to be taught in UK schools to promote debate. ---
**Author:** ![aquarius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@aquarius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aquarius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/10 "2007-10-30T13:47:23Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] There’s the [Truth in Science](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_in_Science) group in the UK agitating for Intelligent Design to be taught in UK schools to promote debate. [/QUOTE] The UK government have explicitly stated that intelligent design isn’t science and isn’t to be taught in science lessons in the UK: see [the response to the petition on intelligent design sent to the Prime Minister](http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page12021.asp) . ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/11 "2007-10-30T14:13:54Z")
There is an Islamic creationist movement, which has even borrowed some source material from the American (fundamentalist Protestant Christian) creationists. (See [Cloning Creationism in Turkey](http://www.natcenscied.org/resources/rncse_content/vol19/8371_cloning_creationism_in_turkey_12_30_1899.asp) and [Islamic Creationism In Turkey](http://www2.truman.edu/~edis/writings/articles/islamic.html) by Taner Edis). ---
**Author:** ![Very\_Space\_Opera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8dc957/32.png) [@Very\_Space\_Opera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Very_Space_Opera)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/12 "2007-10-30T14:22:02Z")
As already mentioned the government has recently had to clarify their position on this due to the activities of ‘Truth In Science’. Whilst the clarification that has been presented is encouraging I, as someone who has followed the creationism/ID issue for a while, am still concerned about the issue. During Blair’s administration there were accusations that schools sponsored by [Peter Vardy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Vardy_(businessman)) as part of the ‘city academy’ schools program had been teaching creationism in science classes. Steven Layfield who is the Head of Science at one of the schools has been previously on the board of Truth In Science although has apparently subsequently resigned. Ofsted declared that creationism wasn’t being taught at the school during science classes. [This](http://www.freewebs.com/cityacademies/ofsted.htm) site by former pupils at the school however claims to have unearthed a letter from Ofsted which states: _“In response to your query about the inspection of science in schools that are obliged to follow the National Curriculum programmes of study, much depends on which aspects of science are being taught at the time inspectors visit the school.”_ This seems in many ways to be saying you can do it, but just don’t be too blatant about it when we’re there checking up on you. Given Blair’s fondness for religion and faith schools in general this has been a very disquieting episode, especially considering that these are not private schools but in fact funded by the state. For many people I think that ID and creationism is something peculiar that our cousins across the pond engage in. Due to the generally small role that religion plays in our lives not many people realise that creationism is far from a harmless eccentricity but a well funded movement with political goals which are in many ways theocratic in nature. Whilst I can’t see ID having any significant success here it is something that needs to be watched. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/13 "2007-10-30T14:52:15Z")
[QUOTE=jovan] Here (Japan) the notion of intelligent design is completely foreign. I would venture a guess that the overwhelming majority of people never even heard of it. I was surprised to find out that there are even people who hold the view at all ([Design of Creation Society](http://www.dcsociety.org/)) but they would generally be perceived as lunatic Christian fringe types. With less that 1% of the population being Christian, lunatic or not, you can imagine that this is a non-issue. [/QUOTE] But is there some home-grown anti-evolution movement or movements? Seems like the Japanese sense of separateness and specialness would lend itself to casting doubt on evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/14 "2007-10-30T14:53:37Z")
[QUOTE=Very Space Opera] This seems in many ways to be saying you can do it, but just don’t be too blatant about it when we’re there checking up on you. Given Blair’s fondness for religion and faith schools in general this has been a very disquieting episode, especially considering that these are not private schools but in fact funded by the state. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to try to justify it, but it’s worth noting that there isn’t anything like a complete separation of church and state in the UK, so it’s not all that surprising that the church has influence in schools. As a parent and a foundation governor at a C of E controlled primary school though, I’ve never seen an actual example of creationism/ID popping up in the science classroom. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/15 "2007-10-30T14:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But is there some home-grown anti-evolution movement or movements? Seems like the Japanese sense of separateness and specialness would lend itself to casting doubt on evolution. [/QUOTE] I doubt there’s anyone in Japan who takes their national Shinto [creation myth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Creation) literally any more; and Buddhism has no creation myth as such. ---
**Author:** ![Very\_Space\_Opera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8dc957/32.png) [@Very\_Space\_Opera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Very_Space_Opera)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/16 "2007-10-30T15:09:29Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I’m not going to try to justify it, but it’s worth noting that there isn’t anything like a complete separation of church and state in the UK, so it’s not all that surprising that the church has influence in schools. As a parent and a foundation governor at a C of E controlled primary school though, I’ve never seen an actual example of creationism/ID popping up in the science classroom. [/QUOTE] Naturally, I would never expect the C of E to get caught in anything like this. Whilst I’m against faith schools generally this is really an entirely separate matter. Letting schools be run by faith organisations is one debatable issue. However letting faith organisations decide what is and isn’t science based on their theological ideas is something that I would hope doesn’t have any significant support in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/17 "2007-10-30T15:11:07Z")
Religion. It’s pretty much what’s wrong with this country at almost every level. Fighting abortion rights, fighting birth control education, touting a farcical abstinence policy, pushing to teach ignorant lies as fact in schools and breeding vacant, useless, unquestioning sheep that will follow any right wing politician or preacher behind a podium. That would be my guess anyway. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/18 "2007-10-30T15:18:27Z")
I think **hawthorne** understates how marginalised all that ultra-Christian BS is in Australia. I have never in my life heard it regarded seriously by anyone. The idea that it could be taught in schools is as likely as students being taught that the earth is flat. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/19 "2007-10-30T18:21:43Z")
I’m not religious, but I could believe in Intelligent Design to a point. For example, the theory that we exist in a Matrix-like virtual world (which I find strangely reasonable considering the way computer simulations are evolving) would fit in many ways with Intelligent Design. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549/20 "2007-10-30T18:28:42Z")
[QUOTE=tschild] Some few advocates here in Germany, but not with any influence on public policy even on the local level. The main Christian churches are OK with evolution anyway. One major reason for introducing ID (né creationism) is absent in Germany: _Genesis_ is taught about in public schools (in religion class), so there is no need to smuggle it into biology class. [/QUOTE] The same goes for Ireland. Religion is taught in religion class(you can opt out with a letter from your parents). Science is taught in science class and there is no blending of the concepts. In fact I was never taught creationism in religion class either. Catholic schools teach genesis from a metaphorical POV. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-usa-the-only-country-that-even-bothers-with-intelligent-design-bullshit/424549.md?page=2)