# Is the War in Iraq Over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296 "2003-10-29T19:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/1 "2003-10-29T19:56:00Z")
This’s another pretty straightforward question for debate. Obviously, there’s not a straightforward answer, or there wouldn’t be much to debate. Is the war in Iraq over? ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/2 "2003-10-29T20:03:15Z")
I would think so. there is not an “army” in the conventional sense to oppose the invaders. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/3 "2003-10-29T20:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*I would think so. there is not an “army” in the conventional sense to oppose the invaders. \*\* Minimum of two armies “in the conventional sense” to qualify as a war? What constitutes an army “in the conventional sense”? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/4 "2003-10-29T20:15:38Z")
I would say its become a Guerrilla War… but by this standard Vietnam was not a war until the regular north vietnamese troops were involved. The difference being that in vietnam people from another country were invading the south… Could there be such a thing as an Occupation War ? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/5 "2003-10-29T20:18:50Z")
The question is meaningless until you define “war”. For every different definition the answer will be diferent. In the wider sense given to the word (like the war on drugs) the war is, obviously, not over. Probably it is not even the end of the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/6 "2003-10-29T20:23:40Z")
Sure, its called a Policing Action, wich is how Vietnam was classified in the beginning. **simonx** ar·my ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ärm) n. pl. ar·mies A large body of people organized and trained for land warfare. often Army The entire military land forces of a country. A tactical and administrative military unit consisting of a headquarters, two or more corps, and auxiliary forces. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/7 "2003-10-29T20:41:51Z")
**Saen** , _When_ did the war end? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/8 "2003-10-29T20:43:47Z")
Well, as Sailor said, until you define a ‘war’ its kind of hard to debate this topic. We’ll be splitting hairs here. IMO, by MY definition of what constitutes a ‘war’, its over. The Iraqi main field force is pretty much toast, the government is deposed and in hiding. The FIGHTHING however is still going on, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. In WWII, in both Japan and Germany, the respective countries surrendered (thus the war was over), however the FIGHTING went on for months or ever years later. Yet we mark the end of the ‘war’ as when the countries surrendered, not when the fighting stopped. There was no unifying concept left to them, no government, no leader…it was just fighting for fightings sake. The difference between Vietnam and here is that in Vietnam the VC were fighting for a unified and expressed goal. There was a leader and an idea (Ho’chimin (sp) and communism). Here, so far, there have been no leaders emerging, no stated goal save kill Americans and drive them out…fighting to fight. Its not exactly the same thing. When/if a true leader with a true agenda emerges in Iraq, when the efforts are pretty well unified and coordinated (I don’t mean the sporatic attacks, I mean with some goal in mind that isn’t simply to kill some Americans), THEN you could say, IMO, that the ‘war’ has re-ignited or that we have a new ‘war’ on our hands there. Anyway, define ‘war’ better and I might change my stance. -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/9 "2003-10-29T20:50:22Z")
I assumed that what constitutes war _was_ an integral part of the debate. If there was a cut and dry definition then this could’ve gone to GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/10 "2003-10-29T20:50:22Z")
_sigh_ Why not read my posts and figure out what u think I meant by the war is over because there is no army to oppose. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/11 "2003-10-29T20:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*_sigh_ > > Why not read my posts and figure out what u think I meant by the war is over because there is no army to oppose. \*\* _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ Was there ever a certain point when the Iraqi army was no more? Do _you_ know when the war ended, like a date perhaps as opposed to conditions? _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/12 "2003-10-29T21:12:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtisme \* > \*\* In WWII, in both Japan and Germany, the respective countries surrendered (thus the war was over), however the FIGHTING went on for months or ever years later. Yet we mark the end of the ‘war’ as when the countries surrendered, not when the fighting stopped. -XT \*\* ``` Fighting went on for years ? ``` ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/13 "2003-10-29T21:21:20Z")
the date those conditions were met. You demand semantics i see, well google and try to find when the highest level Iraqi military person surrendered or became incommunicado with his army. That is your date. If you want a ceremonial date, that may be whenBush gave his speech on the aircraft carrier. Why dont you answer the previous psoters question on what you want to define as a war. I dont want to debate that since Saddam is nt captured or dead that the army is not technically surrendered or that theer may be Iraqi military troops in communication with a leader and still be fighting as an unrecognizedarmy. So yes… _SIGH_ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/14 "2003-10-29T21:28:12Z")
From Rashak Mani > [@](#): > > Fighting went on for years ? In the case of Japan it did. I remember reading (no cite atm) that several Japanese were killed in the Philipeans during the 50’s and 60’s in clashes with the local government. They still thought the war was going on. The last hold outs we know of were not brought in until what? The late 60’s early 70’s? I don’t remember exactly. In Germany underground fighting when on for months after the ‘surrender’, well into '46. To me, this kind of thing doesnt constitute ‘war’…it constitutes, well, fighting. Not the same thing. It doesn’t even constitute a guerrella war (yet) IMO, as I haven’t seen any evidence that things are either organized or coordinated (again, not talking about individual attacks…tactics…but strategically). So, by MY definition of what a ‘war’ is, the ‘war’ is over in Iraq. However, how can we debate this subject when someone else’s definition of what a ‘war’ is might be simply continued fighting? To others, this entire thing might not be considered a true ‘war’, but some other quasi-definition…maybe to them the whole conflict lacks the scale of a true ‘war’ based on the amounts of causalties we suffered…or even that the Iraqi’s suffered. For instance, more folks were killed in single battles in WWI than on both sides of this conflict…or say at Gettysburg during the Civil War. Personally, I don’t subscribe to this, but I can see how someone COULD. So, until you define what we are talking about, who knows? -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/15 "2003-10-30T01:22:05Z")
_SIGH **SIGH** SIGH\*\*SIGH_ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*Why dont you answer the previous psoters question on what you want to define as a war. I dont want to debate that since Saddam is nt captured or dead that the army is not technically surrendered or that theer may be Iraqi military troops in communication with a leader and still be fighting as an unrecognizedarmy. > > So yes… > > _SIGH_ \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*I assumed that what constitutes war _was_ an integral part of the debate. If there was a cut and dry definition then this could’ve gone to GQ. \*\* _SIGH **SIGH** SIGH\*\*SIGH_ ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/16 "2003-10-30T02:54:55Z")
I like Gene Hackmans quote from Behind Enemy Lines (aka BAT 22 1/2) - “unless this ship is in port, we are at WAR!!!” -are you in a foreign country? -did anyone shoot at you or throw something that explodes at you today? -did you shoot at anyone today? Really the only definition of “war” that matters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/17 "2003-10-30T03:02:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*This’s another pretty straightforward question for debate. Obviously, there’s not a straightforward answer, or there wouldn’t be much to debate. > Is the war in Iraq over? \*\* Any reason you haven’t offered up your own position on your debate topic? ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/18 "2003-10-30T03:19:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtisme \* > \*\*From Rashak Mani > > In Germany underground fighting when on for months after the ‘surrender’, well into '46. > -XT \*\* No, it didn’t. This is a right-wing propaganda lie told to create a bad analogy with Iraq. It does not have even a shred of historical credibility and it has been comprehensively and utterly refuted. See for instance lengthy discussion [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207414) In particular note the total number of US hostile deaths in the German occupation ie a grand total of zero according to the Rand corporation, and a grand total of three by my reckoning. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/19 "2003-10-30T03:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by SimonX \* > **SIGH** SIGHSIGH\*SIGH_ > > _SIGH **SIGH** SIGH\*\*SIGH_ \*\* You have a lot to add, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296/20 "2003-10-30T03:55:13Z")
To me, “war” implies two sovreign nations. Unless you believe Saddam is in a supervillain buker, what you’ve got here is an occupation with resistance. In the Vietnam “police action” there was always an enemy government in Hanoi. Webster’s New Universal Unabrgd disagrees with me, saying war can be “between parties in the same state,” which I guess is what we got here. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-in-iraq-over/210296.md?page=2)