# Is the "War on Terror" stupid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938 "2005-01-16T00:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/21 "2005-01-17T01:26:47Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes, but hey with those defeats comes successes, the US military and intelligence aren’t 100% incompetent. The defeats thus far outweigh the victories (sticking a flag in Afghanistan and calling it a victory does not make it so). I agree, the military isn’t 100% incompetent. Our soldiers are pretty solid, as **rjung** points out. But anyone above the rank of Captain I have serious doubts about. As far as our intelligence community… I don’t know how the bloody hell we got through the Cold War with that much ineptitude. They haven’t caught anything since… um… in my lifetime. Well, to be fair, again, it isn’t the entire intelligence community. There are constant reports from field officers that get ignored by their bosses, like the several that predated 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/22 "2005-01-17T01:30:30Z")
The problem is that it really isn’t a war. It’s more like a police task force trying to clean up gangs or something. Wars have defined enmies and clear objectives. TWAT is just a catchphrase. I think it’s also a mistake to think that we can kill our way out of this problem. Terrorism is a hydra. The more heads you lop off the more you create. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/23 "2005-01-17T01:35:45Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think it’s also a mistake to think that we can kill our way out of this problem. Terrorism is a hydra. The more heads you lop off the more you create. But foreign policy is so hard! Poor George sweats just thinking about foreign relations. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/24 "2005-01-17T01:40:05Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > We are not fighting terror or terrorism. We are fighting a group of people - al Qaeda and their associates. Shouldn’t we call it something else? Yes. Let’s call it the Domino Theory. First is was Afghanistan. Then it was Iraq. Now it looks like [we are already setting the stage for Iran](http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050116/2005-01-16T173311Z_01_N16248289_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAN-USA-NEWYORKER-DC.html). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/25 "2005-01-17T01:43:05Z")
Now you just hold on there! He don’t have any damned foreign relations! The Bush people are one hunnerd percent American, and don’t you never suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/26 "2005-01-17T01:59:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now you just hold on there! He don’t have any damned foreign relations! The Bush people are one hunnerd percent American, and don’t you never suggest otherwise. (zing! Nice one) ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/27 "2005-01-17T02:01:48Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Yes. Let’s call it the Domino Theory. > > First is was Afghanistan. > > Then it was Iraq. > > Now it looks like > [we are already setting the stage for Iran](http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050116/2005-01-16T173311Z_01_N16248289_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAN-USA-NEWYORKER-DC.html). From the article: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has been conducting secret reconnaissance missions inside Iran to help identify potential nuclear, chemical and missile targets, The New Yorker magazine reported Sunday. > > The article, by award-winning reporter Seymour Hersh, said the secret missions have been going on at least since last summer with the goal of identifying target information for three dozen or more suspected sites. > > Hersh quotes one government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon as saying, “The civilians in the Pentagon want to go into Iran and destroy as much of the military infrastructure as possible.” > > One former high-level intelligence official told The New Yorker, “This is a war against terrorism, and Iraq is just one campaign. The Bush administration is looking at this as a huge war zone. Next, we’re going to have the Iranian campaign.” Well, Hersh wrote an article with anonymous “high level” sources, so at least we don’t have to start sweating too much yet. Hopefully, Bush will have to declare bankruptcy before we can get to Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/28 "2005-01-17T04:09:09Z")
Oh, lol, I didn’t read the end. It is even funnier. > [@](#): > > Bush has warned Iran in recent weeks against meddling in Iraqi elections. > > The former intelligence official told Hersh that an American commando task force in South Asia is working closely with a group of Pakistani scientists who had dealt with their Iranian counterparts. > > The New Yorker reports that this task force, aided by information from Pakistan, has been penetrating into eastern Iran in a hunt for underground nuclear-weapons installations. > > In exchange for this cooperation, the official told Hersh, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has received assurances that his government will not have to turn over Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of Pakistan’s atomic bomb, to face questioning about his role in selling nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea. > > Hersh reported that Bush has already “signed a series of top-secret findings and executive orders authorizing secret commando groups and other Special Forces units to conduct covert operations against suspected terrorist targets in as many as 10 nations in the Middle East and South Asia.” > > Defining these as military rather than intelligence operations, Hersh reported, will enable the Bush administration to evade legal restrictions imposed on the CIA’s covert activities overseas. I feel safer already, and glad to know that Fearless Leader is protecting us from rogue states like Pakis- oh, wait… Can’t wait until Al Jazeera picks up this. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/29 "2005-01-17T09:31:15Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Er, would you mind repeating that in English? English my good not > [@Demorian](#): > > ``` > it is a misleading and frankly embarassingly stupid name for a misleading and embarassingly stupid campaign - and it is a title for a political treatise, which is a bit more dangerous than an academic one > > ``` misleading - not really, we know exactly who the targets are, dark foreigners who either blow up things that are important to us (or look like they might given enough time). embarassingly stupid - it helped win the election so can’t be that stupid. Oh what you mean is that you disagree with it… title for a political treatise, which is a bit more dangerous… - dangerous to who? terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/30 "2005-01-17T10:00:39Z")
“War on Terror” is an utter nonsense. One cannot declare war on a criminal terrorist organisation any more than on a cartel of dodgy bookmakers. In any case, _is_ there any international organisation called “Al Qaeda” which might nerve gas us in our very beds? I would say **not**. Binladen was, if anything, merely the Quartermaster for a handful (possibly less than fifty) of foreign terrorists who had _independently_ conceived of different plans (_eg._ African embassy bombs), who would go to him only for funding. The name “Al Qaeda” was never used by _anyone_ before January 2001, when a supposed informer was prompted by the FBI to testify that Binladen headed an enormous, global organisation. The 9/11 attacks, despite early hysteria citing millions of dollars and hundreds or thousands of support staff, involved literally only a handful of people in addition to the twenty or so in the planes themselves and cost a few tens of thousands of dollars. It was, simply and sadly, a horrific “atrocity jackpot” hit by a despicable Saudi psychopath who wanted a place in history. Al Qaeda barely even existed then, and it certainly doesn’t any more. Jemaah Islamiah, the group responsible for the Bali Bomb, had [no link with Al Qaeda](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/01/08/bali.alqaeda/). The Madrid bomb was planted by a group called [Islamic Combatants of Morocco](http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/31/spain.bombings/) (GICM), who exchanged drugs for mining explosives. Again, these are hardly the actions of a global terrorist organisation. The gunmen in Egypt or the Chechen Separatist movement have no AQ link either. These groups are isolated handfuls of psychopaths. Only one of them, somewhere in the world, needs to put some cheap explosives in a public place once a year and the Al Qaeda illusion is complete. This “war” is, if anything, being fought against an _idea_ - that of radical Islamic militancy. One “joins Al Qaeda” by the simple initiation rite of being so disgusted with Western liberalism that one considers the tactics of terror justified. So what of this “war”? Of course they want to _fight_ it, since that [wins elections](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283398). The question is whether they are interested in _decreasing global instances_ of terrorism given that the number of attacks, which had gradually [tailed off](http://www.afa.org/magazine/july2001/0701terror_print.html) in the 1990’s and should surely have _peaked_ in 2001, has vastly **increased** since 2001 such that [2003 was a 20 year peak](http://www.godlessgeeks.com/errors_on_terror.htm). The as yet unavailable 2004 figures will be even worse. And what of 2005? Based on these figures, this war is categorically, undeniably and absolutely being **lost**. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/31 "2005-01-17T10:48:51Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > The name “Al Qaeda” was never used by _anyone_ before January 2001, when a supposed informer was prompted by the FBI to testify that Binladen headed an enormous, global organisation. As to whether there actually is an “al-Qaeda group” issuing membership cards and holding alumni reunions… most likely not. The term was most likely a metonym arising from an actual physical “base” used in the Afghan wars of the 1980’s. However, it is false to say that the term was never used before January 2001, as it was used immediately after the US embassy bombings in 1998. However, calling the group by the wrong name does not negate the existence of the group. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/32 "2005-01-17T11:12:47Z")
> [@](#): > > The term was most likely a metonym arising from an actual physical “base” used in the Afghan wars of the 1980’s. However, it is false to say that the term was never used before January 2001, as it was used immediately after the US embassy bombings in 1998. Are you sure? My recollection is that the term was grafted onto those bombings a few months or years _afterwards_, when it had gained some currency. But OK, I’m happy to retract that particular assertion. That does not alter my position that the _organisational_ aspect of those men living in caves and tents is, and was, _massively_ overblown. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/33 "2005-01-17T11:31:00Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > But foreign policy is so hard! Poor George sweats just thinking about foreign relations. That’s because he mistakes ‘em fer furrein relathionSHIPS an’ his Church forbids havin’ those outside a’ marriage. At least since he went an’ became born aggen. (Puns directed to Mr Bush in particular, not born agains in general. Dude sounds like his car has a higher IQ) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/34 "2005-01-17T11:51:02Z")
**SM:** \* That does not alter my position that the organisational aspect of those men living in caves and tents is, and was, massively overblown.\* A recent [article](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050124&s=scheer0111) by Robert Scheer, discussing a new BBC documentary about terrorism and its exploitation for political purposes, suggests that you may be right: > [@](#): > > [T]he film, both more sober and more deeply provocative than Michael Moore’s _Fahrenheit 9/11_, directly challenges the conventional wisdom by making a powerful case that the Bush Administration, led by a tight-knit cabal of Machiavellian neoconservatives, has seized upon the false image of a unified international terrorist threat to replace the expired Soviet empire in order to push a political agenda. > > Terrorism is deeply threatening, but it appears to be a much more fragmented and complex phenomenon than the octopus-network image of Al Qaeda, with bin Laden as its head, would suggest. > > While the BBC documentary acknowledges that the threat of terrorism is both real and growing, it disagrees that the threat is centralized: > > “There are dangerous and fanatical individuals and groups around the world who have been inspired by extreme Islamist ideas and who will use the techniques of mass terror–the attacks on America and Madrid make this only too clear. But the nightmare vision of a uniquely powerful hidden organization waiting to strike our societies is an illusion. Wherever one looks for this Al Qaeda organization, from the mountains of Afghanistan to the ‘sleeper cells’ in America, the British and Americans are chasing a phantom enemy.” In other words, terrorism is indeed a genuine threat, particularly fundamentalist Islamist terrorism, but it seems unlikely that there is any James-Bond-like international organization headed by an evil genius that’s significantly coordinating it. IMO this, if true, just makes the description of antiterrorism activities as “war” rather than “policing” or “security” even more misleading and counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/35 "2005-01-17T13:59:32Z")
I think it should have been called The War Against Terror to give it a better acronym. We give the terrorists way too much credit. The initial reaction to 9/11 was that there MUST be a super duper organization that pulled off something like that. And a super duper organization must have a super villian at the head. The public is as reluctant to believe that 9/11 was pulled off by a loose knit group of independent criminals as it was to believe that JFK could have been killed by a nobody like Oswald. Not everything done to date in this “war” has been stupid. Tracing and cutting off the flow of money probably had more impact than any military adventure. Cooperation by international law enforcement has put some of these thugs in the cooler. Taking some common sense precautions to prevent the repeated use of airliners as weapons is one practical step with a high benefit/cost ratio. But I think calling it a “war” fools people into thinking there will be an end to it. It isn’t going to end, all anyone can do is combat it like any other criminal activity. ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/36 "2005-01-18T23:20:08Z")
Just wanted to say - and its a bit late - but the most excellent documentary " The Power Of Nightmares" is being repeated on BBC2 NOW - 11.25pm gmt. Ok, so by the time anyone reads this, it will be finished, but there are two more episodes to come on wed and thurs night. Watch it. It describes how the ‘War On Terror’ is - well stupid ! Oh and dangerous. Sin ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/37 "2005-01-19T14:01:26Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > I disagree. Apparently, our military and intelligence resources are COMPLETELY FREAKING INEPT. > [@elucidator](#): > > We are the number one military power in the world :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/38 "2005-01-19T20:25:54Z")
Thoughts from a distinguished prof @ the US Army War College **[Bounding the War on Terror](http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pubs/display.cfm/hurl/PubID=207)** **Synopsis** : “The author examines three features of the war on terrorism as currently defined and conducted: INDENT the administration’s postulation of the terrorist threat, (2) the scope and feasibility of U.S. war aims, and (3) the war’s political, fiscal, and military sustainability. **He believes that the war on terrorism–_as opposed to the campaign against al-Qaeda_–lacks strategic clarity, embraces unrealistic objectives, and may not be sustainable over the long haul**. He calls for downsizing the scope of the war on terrorism to reflect concrete U.S. security interests and the limits of American military power.”[/indent] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/39 "2005-01-19T21:10:19Z")
The **phrase** “War on Terror” is not nearly as stupid as the **policy** of dealing with the very real terrorist threat as if it were a military threat. Trying to fight terrorists with an army is like firing a machine gun at a cloud of mosquitoes. Mosquitoes that happen to be hovering between the gun and a crowd of innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938/40 "2005-01-21T21:15:44Z")
I’ve never understood _why_ it is inappropriate to approach the issue of terrorist actions as a criminal matter. Yeah, I know that calling it a war is sexier but, as someone above pointed out, I think it legitimizes the offenders to too large a degree. Let’s call them what they are - criminals. Apprehending persons who played a part in the Sept. 11, 2001 events would then lead to trials, and loooooonnnnggggg incarcerations (how many years would you serve for 2,000+ counts of murder?). I know there are issues of extradition, but I think if we had made better use of the goodwill directed our way in the immediate aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, we could probably have reached some satisfactory arrangements in this regard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-war-on-terror-stupid/284938.md?page=1)