# Is the west kidding itself about the good intentions of Islam worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 29, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840 "2014-03-29T17:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/81 "2014-04-02T18:28:50Z")
> [@astro](#): > > On one hand you have a number of followers of Islam, especially in the west, who claim that Islam is a religion of live and let live and peace, on the other when you get out in the field and in the home country populations where Islam is the majority belief there are huge chunks of the Islamic population from the top to the bottom class levels who are all about going to holy war with the west and striking as many deadly blows toward the west as possible. The antipathy toward the west is palpable. > > What’s the actual opinion of the Muslim man on the street in these areas? Are we fooling ourselves about the peaceful nature of Islam if this focus on Jihad is at it’s philosophical core? I think we are. Islamics are told to kill infidels, period. 109 verses in the Koran demand it. [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/82 "2014-04-02T18:31:08Z")
Interesting. You won’t say “Muslim” now? Dare I ask why? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/83 "2014-04-02T19:56:42Z")
I’d recommend the book “The Missing Martyrs: Why there are so few Muslim Terrorists” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/84 "2014-04-02T22:37:38Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Muslims make a tiny fraction of the USA’s population, but a rather large fraction of those who would hijack airplanes, bomb marathons, or shoot up army bases\*\* in the past few years\*\*. Muslims make a tiny portion of Argentina’s population, but a large portion of those who would kill Argentine Jews just because they’re Jewish. Muslims make a small sliver of the population of Denmark and Netherlands, but a large chunk of those who would murder filmmakers or cartoonists in an attempt to suppress free speech. To ignore these facts is to ignore reality. Was Islam founded in the “past few years”? As pointed out, lots of groups are committing terrorist offenses and the vast majority of them aren’t Muslim. The Tamil Tigers weren’t Muslims, yet they performed multiple suicide bombings. The IRA (and, to a lesser extent, their Unionist counterparts) murdered hundreds of people and bombed public buildings, and there wasn’t a Muslim among them. You cannot say “Muslims commit terrorist acts, therefore we must treat them with suspicion” without performing the same assessment on other groups - the Jews, the Catholics, the Buddhists, the animal rights and environmental groups, the RWNJs, and so on. Just because the Muslims are the ones you’re afraid of right now doesn’t mean they’re the biggest threat to your safety, nor that all of them are deserving of being tarred with the same brush. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/85 "2014-04-02T23:26:31Z")
These types of questions have been done to death. Ultimately Islam is the villain of this week, like communism was for last week and next week it will probably be the Koreans or something. The people need to be kept fearful after all, so that the real villains can get on with their work in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/86 "2014-04-02T23:51:48Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I think we are. Islamics are told to kill infidels, period. 109 verses in the Koran demand it. > > [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm) What is an “Islamic”, and what do they have to with Muslims? On a side note, has anyone counted the number of verses in the Bible that refer to slaying nonbelievers? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/87 "2014-04-02T23:52:26Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > The people need to be kept fearful after all, so that \*\*the real villains \*\*can get on with their work in peace. (my bold) And that would be…? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/88 "2014-04-03T00:43:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Was Islam founded in the “past few years”? No. It was founded in the 6th century. I find it rather strange that you didn’t know that. > [@](#): > > As pointed out, lots of groups are committing terrorist offenses and the vast majority of them aren’t Muslim. The Tamil Tigers weren’t Muslims, yet they performed multiple suicide bombings. The IRA (and, to a lesser extent, their Unionist counterparts) murdered hundreds of people and bombed public buildings, and there wasn’t a Muslim among them. So? > [@](#): > > You cannot say “Muslims commit terrorist acts, therefore we must treat them with suspicion” without performing the same assessment on other groups If I encounter anyone who says “Muslims commit terrorist acts, therefore we must treat them with suspicion”, I’ll relate your opinion to that person. Good day. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/89 "2014-04-03T00:57:29Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No. It was founded in the 6th century. I find it rather strange that you didn’t know that. . . . No, it was a rhetorical question. I find it not a bit strange that you pretended not to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/90 "2014-04-03T01:14:15Z")
As a secularist I think all religions are more or less destructive (they offer delusions rather than answers and promote submissive authoritarianism. Plus people use them to justify their personal and cultural biases). But yes, I would say Islam is worse than Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. [http://www.freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit#.Uzy0XfnibAA](http://www.freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit#.Uzy0XfnibAA) > [@](#): > > Of the world’s 192 countries, 121 are electoral democracies. However, only 11 of the 47 nations (23 percent) with an Islamic majority have democratically elected governments. In the non-Islamic world, which comprises 145 states, 110 are electoral democracies (75 percent). Therefore, a non-Islamic state is over three times more likely to be democratic than an Islamic state. None of the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa is a democracy. > > In addition to a democracy divide, there is a dramatic freedom deficit between majority Islamic countries and the rest of the world. Of the states with an Islamic majority, only one, Mali, is rated Free. Eighteen are rated Partly Free, and 28 are considered Not Free. By contrast, in the non-Islamic world, 85 countries are Free, 40 are Partly Free, and 20 are Not Free. > > The gap in freedom has only widened over the last twenty years. While every other region of the world has registered significant gains for democracy and freedom, the countries of the Islamic world have experienced a significant increase in repression. Supposedly there have been improvements in the last 13 years, since 2001. A lot of Islamic countries have moved from ‘not free’ to ‘partly free’. But still. I know humans are by nature prejudiced against outsiders and by nature xenophobes. But in between the inability to assimilate in Europe, the lack of freedom and democracy, the 10-20% who (according to Bernard Lewis) support terrorism, there is something there. Although I wouldn’t group the 100 million muslims in India with the 50 million living on the arabian peninsula. And yes, christian nations were pretty evil 500 years ago (or 80 years ago, although that evil in Europe and Russia was more secular). But we are talking about the present. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/91 "2014-04-03T03:58:18Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No. It was founded in the 6th century. I find it rather strange that you didn’t know that. In the 7th century actually. In the 600s AD. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/92 "2014-04-03T07:57:11Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I think we are. Islamics are told to kill infidels, period. 109 verses in the Koran demand it. > > [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm) Oh dear, it looks like I’ve been sadly remiss in performing my duties as an “Islamic” then. Tsk, tsk, how unforgivably lax of me. No matter…if all the infidels could kindly form an orderly queue, I’ll get started on redressing the situation. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/93 "2014-04-03T16:37:21Z")
If they did, that would mean they were all liberals & so I would not have any objections. _snerk_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/94 "2014-04-03T17:58:30Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If they did, that would mean they were all liberals & so I would not have any objections. _snerk_ 😃 > [@Ambivalid](#): > > (my bold) > > What is it, specifically, that you are seeing that we are allowing the US government to do that is going to ultimately lead to an Islam-controlled USA? Please be specific. I asked you this question earlier in the thread and you never responded. Care to now? ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/95 "2014-04-03T19:47:22Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If they did, that would mean they were all liberals & so I would not have any objections. _snerk_ 😃 Let’s lay off the glee at the notion of the death of liberals, please. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/96 "2014-04-05T12:46:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Not if you lived in Northern Ireland during the Troubles it you switch the Christian denominations. I am not sure many people switched religions in NI during the Troubles but more to the point I am not aware of any case where switching religions made someone a target. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/97 "2014-04-05T18:18:18Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Let’s lay off the glee at the notion of the death of liberals, please. Okay, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/98 "2014-04-05T18:35:10Z")
I would imagine that the islamic world has its radicals, moderates and passives. The radicals tend to be more aggressive and can often bully their way into positions of authority. The fundamentalist Islamic groups have a culture that they do not wan tainted with western thinking, likewise the west could never accept what they consider social norms. I believe the cure will best happen from the inside out with more moderate Islamics standing up and taking back their culture. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/99 "2014-04-05T18:41:14Z")
There’s that word again! Did I miss a memo, or are some of you guys talking about a salad dressing? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840/100 "2014-04-05T20:24:12Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I am not sure many people switched religions in NI during the Troubles but more to the point I am not aware of any case where switching religions made someone a target. You misread what was posted. You changed the meaning of “if you switch the religions.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam-worldwide/684840.md?page=6)