# Is the West kidding itself about the good intentions of Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 22, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977 "2017-09-22T15:41:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Narble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bb73d2/32.png) [@Narble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Narble)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/1 "2017-09-22T15:41:43Z")
I have a comment to make on this article. I watched an documentary by a historian on the history of Islam, Judaism and Catholicism. Please keep in mind as I continue my post that the Catholic church’s beliefs and practices are actually much different than others that are unfortunately lumped under the convenient term of “Christianity”…so my distinction here and why I will not use the term “Christian” as broadly as some unfortunately do. I am specifically referring to the Catholic church in my post. What I learned from this documentary was that the Muslim population learned about holy war (jihad) from the Catholic church’s crusades. Before then, it was not a part of their practices. They were attacked under the Catholic church’s greedy need to conquer at all costs and gain wealth & more power, which as with any military type campaign that has this goal, means to slaughter all and do all the evil that goes with it. Anything goes to reach that ultimate goal. If it is done under a powerful entity (religious or not), there is even more zeal, as those fighting under that name want status, riches and fame as well. These reasons are not biblical ones by any means…to conquer for fame, riches and egotistic power. These are unarguably historically Catholic reasons, though. Anyway, my point is, based on this historian’s findings, that Catholics fought their holy wars first against the Muslims (Crusades) and the Muslims fought back using the same idea of holy war. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/2 "2017-09-22T16:04:45Z")
Welcome to the SDMB. [Here is a link to the column being discussed,](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3359/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam) ---
**Author:** ![Harrkev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Harrkev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrkev)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/3 "2017-09-22T17:56:33Z")
Hmmm. Narble, I think that you missed something. First, I am _NOT_ an expert on the crusades. However, the stated purpose was to **RECLAIM** lands that had been attacked and taken by Muslims. If the Muslims were all-peaceful, there would hardly be a reason to retake lands that were never conquered by the sword in the first place. I am not saying that Wikipedia is exactly the ultimate reference source and completely infallible, but it is a good starting place… Violent conquest has been part of Islam from the beginning, whether you use the “Jihad” term or not. > **[Early Muslim conquests | Military campaigns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests#Military_campaigns)** > > The province of Syria was the first to be wrested from Byzantine control. Arab-Muslim raids that followed the Ridda wars prompted the Byzantines to send a major expedition into southern Palestine, which was defeated by the Arab forces under command of Khalid ibn al-Walid at the Battle of Ajnadayn (634). Ibn al-Walid, had converted to Islam around 627, becoming one of Muhammad's most successful generals. Ibn al-Walid had been fighting in Iraq against the Persians when he led his force on a After a... ---
**Author:** ![Harrkev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Harrkev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrkev)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/4 "2017-09-22T18:01:51Z")
Now, for a different context to this, we need to ask a different question: how well does Islam play with others? The answer is generally not good. How tolerant are they of other opinions? Not at all. Period. Islam is SO tolerant that you can be KILLED for blasphemy or changing religions… “A new Pew Research Center analysis finds that, as of 2014, about a quarter of the world’s countries and territories (26%) had anti-blasphemy laws or policies, and that more than one-in-ten (13%) nations had laws or policies penalizing apostasy. The legal punishments for such transgressions vary from fines to death.” Guess which countries these are? You will never guess… > **[Four-in-ten countries and territories worldwide had blasphemy laws in 2019](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/01/25/four-in-ten-countries-and-territories-worldwide-had-blasphemy-laws-in-2019-2/)** > > 79 countries and territories out of the 198 studied around the world (40%) had laws or policies in 2019 banning blasphemy. Next, let’s look at the Asa Bibi case. This is about Pakistan, not exactly a hot bed of violent activity, but generally considered a “mainstream” Muslim country. Asia Noreen Bibi is a Christian in Pakistan. She is currently waiting EXECUTION for blasphemy against Mohammed. Yup, she was tried and convicted without any hard evidence, just the word of Muslim women who were mad that she would dare drink from the same well as them. “The general population was less sympathetic towards Noreen. Several signs were erected in Sheikhupura and other rural areas declaring support for the blasphemy laws, including one that called for Noreen to be beheaded.[27] Mohammad Saleem, a member of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Pakistan Party, organized a demonstration in Rawalpindi and led a small crowd chanting, “Hang her, hang her.”[12] In December 2010, a month after Noreen’s conviction, a Muslim cleric announced a 500,000 Pakistani rupee award (the equivalent of $10,000)[7] to anyone who would kill her.[3][41] One survey reported that around 10 million Pakistanis had said that they would be willing to personally kill her out of either religious conviction or for the reward.[7] The village mosque in Ittan Wali was reportedly indifferent towards Noreen’s plight; its imam, Qari Mohammed Salim, stated that he had wept for joy on learning that she had been sentenced to death and threatened that some people would “take the law into their own hands” should she be pardoned or released.” So, yeah, all they want is peace, and the execution of anybody who would dare be accused of blasphemy. Where is this peace and tolerance that they are supposed to practice? The GENERAL POPULATION is OK with this, as it is a part of both their culture and legal system. So, a poll showed that 5% of the general population of Pakistan (10 million people) would be willing to kill an accused blasphemer with their OWN HANDS. What could possibly go wrong bringing them into a country with free speech? > **[Asia Bibi blasphemy case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Bibi_blasphemy_case)** > > In 2010, a Pakistani Christian woman, Aasiya Noreen (Urdu: آسیہ نورین, romanized: Āsiyāh Naurīn, \[ˈɑːsiɑː nɔːˈriːn\]; born c. 1971), commonly known as Asia Bibi (آسیہ بی بی) or Aasia Bibi, was convicted of blasphemy by a Pakistani court and was sentenced to death by hanging. In October 2018, the Supreme Court of Pakistan acquitted her based on insufficient evidence, though she was not allowed to leave Pakistan until the verdict was reviewed. She was held under armed guard and was In June 2009,... ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/5 "2017-09-22T18:31:59Z")
That’s been hashed out many times on this board, **Harrkev**. There are fundamentalist Christians who believe that their God wants them to kill others with different values and beliefs. Would you consider the Westboro Baptist Church representative of all Christians? There are radical extremists in every faith, and in groups without a religious figurehead. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/6 "2017-09-22T19:00:18Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > That’s been hashed out many times on this board, **Harrkev**. There are fundamentalist Christians who believe that their God wants them to kill others with different values and beliefs. Would you consider the Westboro Baptist Church representative of all Christians? There are radical extremists in every faith, and in groups without a religious figurehead. I was going to bring up The Klan, they do consider themselves to be Christians … I can’t blame whatever denomination spawned such a hateful group nor the entire Protestant movement … Just repeating what I’ve heard … our problems are with the Jihadists, which is just a tiny minority of Wahhabists, which in turn is a minority of Sunnis … I think it’s wrong to blame all of Christiandom for the acts of The Klan … thus I think it’s wrong to blame all of Islam by the acts of Jihadists … Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country in the world … I understand it’s not the Garden of Eden there but she’s hardly a terrorist hot-spot … ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/7 "2017-09-22T21:55:06Z")
Funny… Of course the well-known nature of the peaceful (oh no, actually not peaceful) forced conversions to the Christianity in the early Europe are so well known… Or the bloody suppression of anything the Christian church hieararchies decided was heritical - the real reason for the success of the Islamic take over of the Levant and the Egypt from the eastern Roman, not any great war genuis, only the promises to the local ‘heretical’ christians and the jews to leave them alone. The focus on the tax payments and the contract law. silly hypocritical faux argumentations. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/8 "2017-09-22T23:09:50Z")
Centuries before the Crusades, Muslim warriors emerged from Arabia to conquer neighboring lands, ranging as far west as Spain, losing only to Charles Martel (otherwise the history of France would have been quite different) and ranging far east as well. While many motivations explain why this conquest occurred, religion was one of the reasons behind it. Of course, the very fast Muslim expansion stopped. Perhaps the enthusiasm for religious conquest waned after a while? Or did it have something to do with political splintering? But I don’t see this as startlingly different from the history of Christianity. Perhaps because Christianity effectively “took over” a strong nation (Rome) that had already conquered so much territory and so many people that a sweeping conquest beyond Rome’s borders would have been difficult early in Christianity’s history. Certainly missionaries were extremely effective at converting areas the Romans had never conquered, such as Ireland, Scandinavia, and Ukraine, despite often having no military power whatsoever, then destroying local religions and imposing tithes on the people. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/9 "2017-09-22T23:58:35Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Centuries before the Crusades, Muslim warriors emerged from Arabia to conquer neighboring lands, ranging as far west as Spain, losing only to Charles Martel (otherwise the history of France would have been quite different) For accuracy it is to note that this MArtel story is romantic fiction. The brief holding of the mediterranean France showed well it was beyond the long term range of the old Ummayads. > [@](#): > > But I don’t see this as startlingly different from the history of Christianity. Perhaps because Christianity effectively “took over” a strong nation (Rome) that had already conquered so much territory and so many people that a sweeping conquest beyond Rome’s borders would have been difficult early in Christianity’s history. Certainly missionaries were extremely effective at converting areas the Romans had never conquered, such as Ireland, Scandinavia, and Ukraine, despite often having no military power whatsoever, then destroying local religions and imposing tithes on the people. You can read about the Conversion crusades of conquest in the Europe itself. “no military power” is a fiction as presenting no conquests by sword and by fire of the lands beyond the old roman sphere - the conversion of many portions of the north and the eastern europe was military as the poor old prussian pagans could attest to you. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/10 "2017-09-23T03:58:32Z")
“Is the West kidding itself about the good intentions of Islam?” About a very militant minority of Muslims? Yes. [http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4930742/islam-terrorism-islamophobia-violence/?source=dam](http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4930742/islam-terrorism-islamophobia-violence/?source=dam) > [@](#): > > Yahya Cholil Staquf: Radical Islamic movements are nothing new. They’ve appeared again and again throughout our own history in Indonesia. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me — an Islamic scholar — of being an Islamophobe too? > > -snip- > > Yahya Cholil Staquf: I’m not saying that Islam is the only factor causing Muslim minorities in the West to lead a segregated existence, often isolated from society as a whole. There may be other factors on the part of the host nations, such as racism, which exists everywhere in the world. But traditional Islam — which fosters an attitude of segregation and enmity toward non-Muslims — is an important factor. > > -snip- > > Interviewer: I would guess that you and I agree that there is a far right wing in Western societies that would reject even a moderate, contextualized Islam. > > Yahya Cholil Staquf: And there’s an extreme left wing whose adherents reflexively denounce any and all talk about the connections between traditional Islam, fundamentalism and violence as de facto proof of Islamophobia. This must end. A problem that is not acknowledged cannot be solved. Read the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/11 "2017-09-23T12:50:28Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Funny… > Of course the well-known nature of the peaceful (oh no, actually not peaceful) forced conversions to the Christianity in the early Europe are so well known… > Or the bloody suppression of anything the Christian church hieararchies decided was heritical - the real reason for the success of the Islamic take over of the Levant and the Egypt from the eastern Roman, not any great war genuis, only the promises to the local ‘heretical’ christians and the jews to leave them alone. The focus on the tax payments and the contract law. > > silly hypocritical faux argumentations. Just out of curiosity, got anything from the last century or so? > [@Superdude](#): > > That’s been hashed out many times on this board, **Harrkev**. There are fundamentalist Christians who believe that their God wants them to kill others with different values and beliefs. Would you consider the Westboro Baptist Church representative of all Christians? There are radical extremists in every faith, and in groups without a religious figurehead. What percentage of Christians find the WBC representative of their beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/12 "2017-09-23T13:08:19Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Just out of curiosity, got anything from the last century or so? Just curious, do you not understand the comparative frame of reference of history to history or is it just emptyposturing? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/13 "2017-09-23T13:14:46Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What percentage of Christians find the WBC representative of their beliefs? And moreover, when’s the last time that the WBC has executed anyone for their lack of faith or sent a suicide bomber somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/14 "2017-09-23T13:21:58Z")
When was the last time white Americans lynched a black american? When was the last time white americans killed out of the race prejudice a minority? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/15 "2017-09-23T13:55:05Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Just curious, do you not understand the comparative frame of reference of history to history or is it just emptyposturing? The past was harsh and barbaric. Christianity has largely gotten past that step. Islam, in many places, has not. What kind of weak-ass gotcha is that, anyways? “Sure, my religion is responsible for numerous atrocities every week the world over, but look at what this other religion did _500 years ago_!” Every single person condemning modern Islam will gladly condemn the actions of Christianity in the past. In fact, many of them will gladly condemn the actions of Christianity _today_ insofar as Christianity is responsible for awful things (like the abusive cultishness of the Quiverfull movement, the dominionists, the anti-gay movement, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/16 "2017-09-23T14:05:49Z")
The subject was the past. The response was about the past, that history. Move goal posts for your own prejudcies as you like but waving strawmen around is of no interest. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/17 "2017-09-23T15:59:55Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > “Is the West kidding itself about the good intentions of Islam?” About a very militant minority of Muslims? Yes. This is the kind of pointless straw man that stops this kind of conversation getting anywhere. Nobody, _nobody_, would disagree that there is a militant minority of Muslims who believe in some kind of radical islam, because we all see the same terrorist incidents, we all know about ISIS. What we’re discussing here is about _generalizing_ about all Muslims on the basis of some minority. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, but yes, right now, the religion has a higher proportion of violent extremists than any other religion, both these statements can be true at the same time. > [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > The past was harsh and barbaric. Christianity has largely gotten past that step. Islam, in many places, has not. What kind of weak-ass gotcha is that, anyways? “Sure, my religion is responsible for numerous atrocities every week the world over, but look at what this other religion did 500 years ago!” But we’re talking about whether the religion itself is fundamentally bad or good. Christianity is a good example here: the Bible contains various God-endorsed genocides, and people once took it quite literally. But societies and theologies moved on, and although the book hasn’t changed, we focus on the peaceful parts now, and try to derive some metaphor from the other bits. Islam has kind of gone the other way, being quite enlightened compared to Europe during Islam’s golden age, now not only do many take the book literally, but a minority derive an evil message from it. But it’s not really the book; you could find inspiration for the same acts from the bible, and in many parts of the world people still believe the bible tells them to murder gays, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/18 "2017-09-23T18:45:45Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > For accuracy it is to note that this MArtel story is romantic fiction. > > The brief holding of the mediterranean France showed well it was beyond the long term range of the old Ummayads. Charles Martel was a real guy who really did stop the real advance of the real Ummayad army at Tours, a real city, on the 10th of October, 732 (really) and then proceeded to sack the Ummayad-held cities of Agde, Beziers, Villenueva, and Nimes. Charles didn’t hold Nimes (the former Narbonensis), but Pepin the Short (another real guy, and the real son of Charles Martel(also a real guy)) took it from the Ummayads in 752. Following the Battle of Tours (real event) the Ummayad caliphate stopped its advance (yes, really). After that, the Caliphate was beset by a large revolt in 739 (the Berber revolt) that eventually led to Morrocan independence. While that was happening, in the East, the Caliphate was attempting to expand into the Caucassus region, all the way to Samarkand (a real place, I’ve always wanted to go there), and eventually fell apart due to internal infighting. There’s no question that the Ummayad Caliphate was ultimately destroyed by internal revolts but it’s ridiculous to dismiss the Battle of Tours or its historical impact as a “fairy tale”. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/19 "2017-09-23T21:24:53Z")
I think he meant that the Islamic advances into France were not territorial ambitions. I’ve read that they were mainly looting and pillaging trips, and that at least part of the reason why the Moors were defeated is that individual soldiers wanted to retreat with the booty they had already secured. That’s mentioned on Wikipedia, but there’s no cite. It may be another of those romantic myths about the battle though. > **[Battle of Tours](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours)** > > Frankish victory > Kingdom of the Franks (Western Franks) > The Battle of Tours, also called the Battle of Poitiers and the Battle of the Highway of the Martyrs (Arabic: معركة بلاط الشهداء, romanized: Maʿrakat Balāṭ ash-Shuhadā'), was fought on 10 October 732, and was an important battle during the Umayyad invasion of Gaul. It resulted in victory for the Frankish and Aquitanian forces, led by Charles Martel, over the invading Umayyad forces, led by Abd al-Rahman al-Ghafiqi, governor of al-Andalus.... > [@](#): > > The battle was still in flux when – Frankish histories claim – a rumour went through the Umayyad army that Frankish scouts threatened the booty that they had taken from Bordeaux. Some of the Umayyad troops at once broke off the battle and returned to camp to secure their loot. According to Muslim accounts of the battle, in the midst of the fighting on the second day (Frankish accounts have the battle lasting one day only), scouts from the Franks sent by Charles began to raid the camp and supply train (including slaves and other plunder).[citation needed] > > Charles supposedly had sent scouts to cause chaos in the Umayyad base camp, and free as many of the slaves as possible, hoping to draw off part of his foe. This succeeded, as many of the Umayyad cavalry returned to their camp. To the rest of the Muslim army, this appeared to be a full-scale retreat, and soon it became one.[citation needed] > > Both Western and Muslim histories agree that while trying to stop the retreat, 'Abd-al-Raḥmân became surrounded, which led to his death, and the Umayyad troops then withdrew altogether to their camp. “All the host fled before the enemy”, candidly wrote one Arabic source, “and many died in the flight”. The Franks resumed their phalanx, and rested in place through the night, believing the battle would resume at dawn the following morning.[citation needed] > Following day > > The next day, when the Umayyad forces did not renew the battle, the Franks feared an ambush. Charles at first believed that the Umayyad forces were trying to lure him down the hill and into the open. This tactic he knew he had to resist at all costs; he had in fact disciplined his troops for years to under no circumstances break formation and come out in the open.[citation needed] > > Only after extensive reconnaissance of the Umayyad camp by Frankish soldiers – which by both historical accounts had been so hastily abandoned that even the tents remained, as the Umayyad forces headed back to Iberia with what loot remained that they could carry – was it discovered that the Muslims had retreated during the night.[citation needed] Look at all those “citation(s) needed”! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/20 "2017-09-23T21:33:55Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Charles Martel was a real guy . Yes indeed. The raids that are fictionalized and blown up into a great world historical battle however were not Ummayad advances, they were raids. So yes you have repeated some half understood histories and missed the point. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977.md?page=2)