# Is the West kidding itself about the good intentions of Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 22, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977 "2017-09-22T15:41:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/41 "2017-09-25T21:40:21Z")
> [@Harrkev](#): > > Riiiiiiiight. You said “there are.” OK. How many? How many dozens of people are in Westboro? What percentage of all Christians? > > “There are radical extremists in every faith, and in groups without a religious figurehead.” There is a big difference between “there are” being 0.5% and “there are” being 50%. If you cannot see this, then I weep for our future. > > We are talking about a MAJORITY of people in Pakistan OK will killing a woman accused of blasphemy without proof, and a sizable percentage (5%) willing to kill her with there own hands. There is a HUGE difference between a few loonies here and there, and the majority of the population. So criticize those specific Pakistani Muslims – those views are certainly worth criticizing, just like the views of most Christians at the times in history in which most Christians held very similar views. Polling shows that American Muslims are more tolerant of homosexuality, for example, than some American groups like evangelical Christians and Mormons: [American Social and Political Attitudes | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-4-social-and-political-attitudes/) That sounds to me like it’s something about the country and culture/society of Pakistan, and not something about Islam, that drives these sorts of attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/42 "2017-09-25T23:47:40Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > That’s been hashed out many times on this board, **Harrkev**. There are fundamentalist Christians who believe that their God wants them to kill others with different values and beliefs. Would you consider the Westboro Baptist Church representative of all Christians? There are radical extremists in every faith, and in groups without a religious figurehead. Do you see what you did, **Harrkev**? You forced **Superdude** , a friend and noted jerk (still buds **SD**?) to get all rational and nice. This isn’t his way, which you’d know if you weren’t new. but you made him play against type, like Henry Fonda in _Once Upon a Time in the West_. Are you satisfied? Does this make you happy? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/43 "2017-09-26T01:56:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Do you see what you did, **Harrkev**? You forced **Superdude** , a friend and noted jerk (still buds **SD**?) to get all rational and nice. This isn’t his way, which you’d know if you weren’t new. but you made him play against type, like Henry Fonda in _Once Upon a Time in the West_. Are you satisfied? Does this make you happy? 😛 **Dropsy** , I’d be insulted if you _didn’t_ still think of me as a jerk. I have a lot of friends who hate my guts. I consider that a compliment. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/44 "2017-09-26T08:46:41Z")
I strongly suspect that if Mecca had been invaded by the Christians the Muslims would have come up with the notion of a holy war first. Circumstances make holy wars, it’s nothing inherent in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/45 "2017-09-26T16:23:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering that there have been times in history in which the Islamic world was generally less violent and more tolerant than the Christian world, and considering that Judaism, whose scripture (the Old Testament) is as violent or more so than any other scripture, is generally less associated with violence than either of the other Abrahamic religions, then I’m highly skeptical that the content of scripture has much if anything significant to do with the overall level of violence and tolerance in majority-one-religion societies. Rather, I think issues of geopolitics, history, and non-religious aspects of culture are far better explanations for these variations in associations with violence than specific doctrinal or textual characteristics of any of the religions. OK, I think this is very clearly not true. **Ramira** pointed out correctly above that medieval Muslim states were generally more tolerant of non-Muslim religions than Christians were of non-Christians, and she also made the case (which I’m not qualified to comment on) that Muslim states were more tolerant of Muslim heresies than Christian states were of heretical Christians. To the extent that’s true, there are clear theological reasons for that. The reason Christian states persecuted Christian heretics were because you can make a very good case for doing so based on Christian scripture and tradition. (St. Augustine famously made that case, and I think if you read his argument you’ll be impressed by how strong it is, even if you disagree with his conclusions). Likewise the reason (well part of the reason) Muslim states tolerated Christians, Jews, and Sabaeans is because there’s explicit religious instruction for doing so. Ideologies do matter, and that includes religious ideologies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/46 "2017-09-26T17:09:46Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > OK, I think this is very clearly not true. **Ramira** pointed out correctly above that medieval Muslim states were generally more tolerant of non-Muslim religions than Christians were of non-Christians, and she also made the case (which I’m not qualified to comment on) that Muslim states were more tolerant of Muslim heresies than Christian states were of heretical Christians. To the extent that’s true, there are clear theological reasons for that. The reason Christian states persecuted Christian heretics were because you can make a very good case for doing so based on Christian scripture and tradition. (St. Augustine famously made that case, and I think if you read his argument you’ll be impressed by how strong it is, even if you disagree with his conclusions). Likewise the reason (well part of the reason) Muslim states tolerated Christians, Jews, and Sabaeans is because there’s explicit religious instruction for doing so. Ideologies do matter, and that includes religious ideologies. Different Christian and Muslim states treated various groups differently, some better and some worse, and they all had leaders who claimed to have religious textual support for their actions. IMO, if one spends a little effort, one can find textual support in religious texts for almost any position, including directly contradictory ones, and history (in my understanding) bears this out. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977/47 "2017-09-27T03:14:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Different Christian and Muslim states treated various groups differently, some better and some worse, and they all had leaders who claimed to have religious textual support for their actions. IMO, if one spends a little effort, one can find textual support in religious texts for almost any position, including directly contradictory ones, and history (in my understanding) bears this out. Very true. We ought to cast aside the ghosts that still haunt organized religion. But what is lost must be “replaced” in some sense. It holds much power to fear a god. In the secular West, what are we replacing the fading crescent of religious dogma with? Without it, we rely on the rational choice of peace. We are not always rational creatures. Religion ought to teach us to _avoid_ conflict, as any true follower of Jesus (or Muhammad) would tell you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-kidding-itself-about-the-good-intentions-of-islam/796977.md?page=2)