# Is the West the poorest part of America? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 15, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429 "2014-10-15T19:34:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/41 "2015-03-13T15:01:42Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Notice that the same link has the states sorted by the “supplemental poverty measure” which is basically what you’re arguing about poverty when adjusted for cost of living. Yeah, California is a bit of an outlier but other than than that I don’t see any particular regional bias to it. It mostly just seems to be high in states that have a lot of large cities, which makes sense if you think about it. > > ETA: Also note that by that measure Oregon is well below the national average, and Washington is _significantly_ lower. That’s why I said the Seattle metro is well off. The rest of Washington, I don’t have stats, but going through those towns I definitely don’t get a feeling they are affluent. Oregon is a pretty unique case. The overall poverty rate is not particularly bad, but the _child_ poverty rate is one of the worst in the country. The number of well-off out-of-state yuppies moving to gentrified parts of Portland probably skews down the poverty ratings, because outside of the Portland metro Oregon is a _very_ poor state. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/42 "2015-03-13T15:12:49Z")
Well, there does not appear to be a way to statistically quantify your gut feeling about that. I personally am always struck by how much better off the rural areas of Washington, Oregon and California seem compared to the rural areas of the Northern Rockies and Great Plains that are my usual stomping grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/43 "2015-03-13T15:16:22Z")
It’s all the fault of the spotted owls ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/44 "2015-03-13T15:38:43Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Well, there does not appear to be a way to statistically quantify your gut feeling about that. > > I personally am always struck by how much better off the rural areas of Washington, Oregon and California seem compared to the rural areas of the Northern Rockies and Great Plains that are my usual stomping grounds. Maybe if you’re just checking out the boutique towns like Aspen, Grass Valley and Ashland. Have you ever been to Falls City or Toledo, Oregon? Or Kelso, Washington? Definitely not what I’d call paragons of affluence. States like Wyoming, North Dakota and Iowa statistically are much more well off. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/45 "2015-03-13T15:39:49Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > In the spirit of pedantism, I’ll point out that the poorest parts of America are _in_ the West. The absolute lowest per capita income counties are on western Indian Reservations and parts of the Texas border region that are practically Mexico. Of course, a whole lot more people live in the poor parts of the South, but they’re technically not _quite_ the poorest of the poor parts of the country… Very good points. There’s a major (and, perhaps, critical) difference between average income per capita (or average income per square mile) and the presence or absence of poverty. Poverty in the South and Appalachia is a big problem, yes, but you will also find significant populations of farmers and blue-collar workers who are making ends meet in a low-cost of living area, despite the fact that their tax return shows relatively little income. They may be “low income” by your definition, but they are not starving or facing foreclosure. Compare that with some neighborhoods of San Francisco where you can make $70,000 a year and still be poor because all the homes cost more than half a million each. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/46 "2015-03-13T15:49:16Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > It’s all the fault of the spotted owls I blame it on San Andreas; it’s all his fault. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/47 "2015-03-13T15:52:59Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Maybe if you’re just checking out the boutique towns like Aspen, Grass Valley and Ashland. Have you ever been to Falls City or Toledo, Oregon? Or Kelso, Washington? Definitely not what I’d call paragons of affluence. States like Wyoming, North Dakota and Iowa statistically are much more well off. If you’re going to cherry pick, what’s the point in using real numbers? Yes, you’re probably going to find individual towns that are poorer compared to the average for entire states? What’s the sense in that? You can’t pick cherries any harder than that. Worse, it’s not like you live in those towns, either. You currently live in a fairly affluent (by overall measures) area but want to complain about how your entire state/region’s situation is to blame. Ok, complain away, but don’t expect people to take you seriously that it’s true by any objective standard. Everybody has their problems. It’s not a contest to claim “worst living conditions ever”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/48 "2015-03-13T16:09:53Z")
This is as far into the thread as I’ve read. (I’m working, and I have to urinate like a thoroughbred.) > [@Ulfreida](#): > > California may have more poor people, but that has to be to some extent a function of just having a whole lot more people period. I don’t know where you get this “lack of modern housing and air conditioning” thing. Never heard that before. The urban areas do have homelessness issues, mostly that is due to the climate (political and otherwise). Indeed. California may have more poor people, but L.A. County alone has a larger population than many countries. (10 million, as of 2013.) Air conditioning? When I lived in Lancaster (Antelope Valley, Mojave Desert) we didn’t have air conditioning. We had a swamp cooler on the roof, and it was fine except for a couple of weeks during monsoon season. Why have expensive air conditioning when you don’t need it? Where I live now, there is no air conditioning or swamp cooler in my house. The hottest part of Summer gets into the mid-80s. Again, a/c isn’t strictly necessary. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/49 "2015-03-13T16:38:36Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > If you’re going to cherry pick, what’s the point in using real numbers? > > \*\*Yes, you’re probably going to find individual towns that are poorer compared to the average for entire states? \*\*What’s the sense in that? You can’t pick cherries any harder than that. > > Worse, it’s not like you live in those towns, either. You currently live in a fairly affluent (by overall measures) area but want to complain about how your entire state/region’s situation is to blame. > > Ok, complain away, but don’t expect people to take you seriously that it’s true by any objective standard. Everybody has their problems. It’s not a contest to claim “worst living conditions ever”. I am shocked to find that fully half of all the towns in any given state are below average. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/50 "2015-03-13T17:00:15Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Maybe if you’re just checking out the boutique towns like Aspen, Grass Valley and Ashland. Have you ever been to Falls City or Toledo, Oregon? Or Kelso, Washington? Definitely not what I’d call paragons of affluence. States like Wyoming, North Dakota and Iowa statistically are much more well off. I’ve never been to or heard of Falls City, but I’ve been to Kelso and Toledo and find using those as examples of grinding poverty to be absolutely baffling. Kelso is kind of bland in a generic suburbia kind of way but seems like an okay places to live. The area around Toledo seems downright quaint to me, like the kind of place you’d want to retire. Both of them are somewhat past their prime with the decline of the timber industry, but they still have reasonably well-functioning economies. They’re pretty much the archetypal sleepy towns, where if the opportunity and excitement of the city don’t lure you away you can stay and make a perfectly comfortable living. They’re _nothing_ like the sort of utter economic breakdown you see in the actual grindingly poor parts of the country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/51 "2015-03-13T17:00:33Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Hey, I was driving around in Vermont yesterday and saw a run-down mobile home. Clearly, then, we can conclude that all of New England is made up of dirt-poor hillbillies! “Swamp Yankees”, please! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/52 "2015-03-13T17:01:03Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I am shocked to find that fully half of all the towns in any given state are below average. Well, yes, but, to be fair, he was comparing the poorest towns in one state to the average of other states. Not that it’s any better. I doubt there’s that much difference when comparing average poverty among the states. At least not such a large difference it won’t be swamped by the variance within any given state. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/53 "2015-03-13T17:01:33Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > If you’re going to cherry pick, what’s the point in using real numbers? > > Yes, you’re probably going to find individual towns that are poorer compared to the average for entire states? What’s the sense in that? You can’t pick cherries any harder than that. There’s a lot of cherry picking in some of the poorer parts of the Central Valley in CA. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/54 "2015-03-13T17:48:58Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Portland, Oregon has 65 miles of unpaved streets (!!!) which blows my mind. Then you might want to be sitting down for [this](http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_04.html) - as of 2012, 35% of all raods in the United States were unpaved. 22% were not only unpaved, but unsurfaced as well (no shells, gravel, stone, etc. - just packed dirt). So, unless Portland has less than 200 total miles of road, you’re above average. Congratulations! Funny thing about averages, they can tell a completely misleading story. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/55 "2015-03-13T20:20:00Z")
I live on one of the (hundreds of) unpaved/unsurfaced roads in the Georgia county with the most miles of unpaved roads. It’s totally a thing. Believe it or not, my neighbors aren’t poor. I used to live on an unpaved/unsurfaced road in the fifth most populous county in Georgia, inside city limits. Road budgets aren’t unlimited, so, for example, a 1.5 mile road with only six houses and a small business aren’t that high on the priority list. Nor a cul-de-sac in a small suburban town. Some of us actually like dirt roads! Really, the OP needs to get out more. Also, I’d love to have a mediocre food scene locally like Portland’s. (And Portland is at the very top of the list of cities I’d move to if I couldn’t live in or near coastal Georgia. I love Portland!) ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/56 "2015-03-13T23:17:19Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > He lives here in Portland. He just likes to bitch about it rather than move away or improve his lot in life. Yeesh, no kidding. Can’t even keep it to one thread. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/57 "2015-03-14T02:49:43Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > I’ve never been to or heard of Falls City, but I’ve been to Kelso and Toledo and find using those as examples of grinding poverty to be absolutely baffling. Kelso is kind of bland in a generic suburbia kind of way but seems like an okay places to live. The area around Toledo seems downright quaint to me, like the kind of place you’d want to retire. > > Both of them are somewhat past their prime with the decline of the timber industry, but they still have reasonably well-functioning economies. They’re pretty much the archetypal sleepy towns, where if the opportunity and excitement of the city don’t lure you away you can stay and make a perfectly comfortable living. **They’re _nothing_ like the sort of utter economic breakdown you see in the actual grindingly poor parts of the country.** Appearances often deceive. It’s more like you literally can’t live in those cities unless you commute regularly to Corvallis or Portland or whatever, or you’re a retiree. I don’t think anyone can deny that the Oregon Coast is extremely poor overall. Those Great Plains towns might look poor but the people there tend to own large tracts of land or have high paying jobs in the oil industry. In Oregon’s mountains and rainforest there’s literally no opportunity aside from badly paid tourism jobs and what little is left of the timber industry. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/58 "2015-03-14T03:39:07Z")
[This map](http://www.povertyusa.org/the-state-of-poverty/poverty-map-county/) shows poverty by county. The worst spots are, almost without exception. indian reservations. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/59 "2015-03-14T03:46:28Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Those Great Plains towns might look poor but the people there tend to own large tracts of land or have high paying jobs in the oil industry. What alternate USA do you live in? This isn’t true at all. Better yet: cite? And you’d best find more than a town here or there where this is true. A few towns out of an entire state does not lead to “tend”. I lived in the plains. It’s like anywhere else. A few people have high paying jobs. A few people have large tracts of land. But most people don’t make that much money or have much land. And several are dirt poor living paycheck to paycheck - if they have a paycheck at all. Worse, oil prices are down by more than half over the last 8 months. Those oil boom towns in North Dakota (I have no clue where else you think they exist) are already starting to empty out and hundreds of thousands of jobs have already disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429/60 "2015-03-14T04:41:07Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Appearances often deceive. It’s more like you literally can’t live in those cities unless you commute regularly to Corvallis or Portland or whatever, or you’re a retiree. I don’t think anyone can deny that the Oregon Coast is extremely poor overall. Those Great Plains towns might look poor but the people there tend to own large tracts of land or have high paying jobs in the oil industry. In Oregon’s mountains and rainforest there’s literally no opportunity aside from badly paid tourism jobs and what little is left of the timber industry. It’s pretty clear that you are completely impervious to facts and are simply looking for someone to reenforce your crazy world view. I’m done, and I would urge everyone else to let this dead horse die the death it long deserves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-west-the-poorest-part-of-america/701429.md?page=4)