# Is The Withdrawal of Surge Troops A Mistake **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569 "2011-06-23T16:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/41 "2011-06-23T23:12:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > None of this however changes the point I made earlier, which was that Afghanistan was always an un-winnable war, and that’s one of the reasons that the Bush administration looked for a different strategy. For all the times I’ve disparaged George W. Bush’s intellect, I never quite reached your level, casting him in the role of the protagonist of the “There’s More Light Here” joke. > [@](#): > > There was a form of dictator deadlock there, and the thinking was that if you could break the logjam, the whole rotten house of cards might collapse. Obviously, providing dictators with an “American Imperialists!” card with which to prop up those houses only delayed reforms. Copper, schmopper – if we properly harnessed your spin, we could use it to send warnings back in time and avoid the whole mess. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/42 "2011-06-23T23:47:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > None of this however changes the point I made earlier, which was that Afghanistan was always an un-winnable war, and that’s one of the reasons that the Bush administration looked for a different strategy. If you’ll recall, it was called “Drain the Swamp”. Get rid of Saddam, and you destabilize Syria and take away the justification for other countries to maintain their dictatorships. Saddam was paying suicide bombers against Israel, he had launched missiles into Israel, he was giving justification for Iran to maintain its stranglehold on the people and maintain a large military, which in turn gave other ME nations justification for maintaining large military forces and iron control over their populations… There was a form of dictator deadlock there, and the thinking was that if you could break the logjam, the whole rotten house of cards might collapse. I never said that I wanted to criticize your points about Afghanistan. What it seemed to me is that the strategy that was reached by Bush was also to stop questions about how Osama Bin Laden escaped from Tora Bora and what we were doing about Al-Qaeda. Something else needed to be done. One answer was made out of whole tortured cloth: That Osama and Saddam were in cahoots with each other and that was made into a bigger tall tale by Powell at the UN. And if you are referring to Iraq as a cause of the middle east spring, I would have to say that it has been harder for the protesters to demand reform in \*\*Iraq \*\*as others are doing elsewhere, thanks to the corrupting mess and unrest we are leaving. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022601854.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022601854.html) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/43 "2011-06-23T23:58:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Not really relevant, since it was one of the worst states while Saddam was in power, too. The question is whether it is getting better or not. I’m well aware that there is a lot of corruption and a lot of other impediments in Iraq, and that it’s not a paradise on Earth. However, I’ll bet if you polled Iraqis the majority of them would say that they are happy that Saddam was gone, don’t you think? If you guys had invaded the States in 2002, put George Bush’s head on a spike, and declared the US a vassal of the Greater Canadian Empire, I’d have been happy George Bush was gone, too. That doesn’t mean I’d view your conquest of my nation as desirable or justified. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/44 "2011-06-24T00:12:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s what you get in a government led by civilians. The military men don’t pick the plan unless they get themselves elected. Of course politicians determine tax rates and trade policy too not economists and politicians determine environmental policy not scientists. But at the same time all good leaders know the wisdom of listening to experts. > [@hansel](#): > > If the U.S. presence in Afghanistan has been unable to accomplish this in a decade of occupation, what makes you think that goal is in reach now? Because the task is now largely conditioning the Afghan populace against terrorism. And the Taliban does not have support of the most of the people of Afghanistan considering its largely Pashtun and Afghanistan is not majority Pashtun. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Didn’t all the military advisors tell Bush that Iraq would be a clusterfuck? They were right about that. They also didn’t want to pull out as soon as the war became unpopular like some politicians wanted and as a result of Petreaus, Gates, and Bush the US won in Iraq/ > [@](#): > > Withdrawing from an occupation is not a strategic military decison, though, it’s a political one. There aren’t any military consequences, so who cares what Petraeus says? How does it not have military consequences? It will determine how the Taliban will act and the whole course of the war. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Iraq is still among the top 10 failed states. > > [http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/06/17/2011\_failed\_states\_index\_interactive\_map\_and\_rankings](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/06/17/2011_failed_states_index_interactive_map_and_rankings) As others have said that’s a very inaccurate assessment. > [@](#): > > And I don’t think Iraqis have found an appreciation for what we did, getting rid of Saddam and then screwing up the rest of what was needed, is not a good way to make others appreciate larger strategic arguments. > > [http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56776.html#ixzz1P63yJDfb](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56776.html#ixzz1P63yJDfb) Of course I don’t think most Iraqis want to go back to Hussein II either. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Try one million, as a result of the war and conflicts after the invasion. > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/30/us-iraq-deaths-survey-idUSL3048857920080130](http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/30/us-iraq-deaths-survey-idUSL3048857920080130) > > And no, that is not the Lancet survey that right wingers attempted to discredit to death, The lancet got about 650,000 by being a little bit conservative, The calculation of one million was the result obtained by another organization in 2008. Most of the other surveys have it in the 100,000 range. Plus most Iraqis died from other insurgents and sectarian fighting not American troops. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/45 "2011-06-24T00:16:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because the task is now largely conditioning the Afghan populace against terrorism. And propping up thugs and killing Afghans pretty much at random does this how? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > They also didn’t want to pull out as soon as the war became unpopular like some politicians wanted and as a result of Petreaus, Gates, and Bush the US won in Iraq. “Won”? We manufactured a failed state full of people with excellent reasons to hate our guts. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Plus most Iraqis died from other insurgents and sectarian fighting not American troops. In other words, from things that were our fault. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/46 "2011-06-24T00:16:55Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > But we didn’t go in for that. GW Bush said to the Taliban, hand over Bin Landen and that is that. If they had complied there would be no war in Afghanistan. > > Bin Laden is dead, there’s no reason to be there now. We should already be leaving. > > Besides, Bin Laden showed us you can hide in a country like Pakistan and there’s not much America can do about it. They may not have actively been aiding terror groups but they are looking the other way. > > Pakistan has nukes, so we can’t do anything to them We can ally with India and cut off all aid to the Paks, and if things keep going where they are I think the US ought to do it. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I never said that I wanted to criticize your points about Afghanistan. > > What it seemed to me is that the strategy that was reached by Bush was also to stop questions about how Osama Bin Laden escaped from Tora Bora and what we were doing about Al-Qaeda. Something else needed to be done. > > One answer was made out of whole tortured cloth: That Osama and Saddam were in cahoots with each other and that was made into a bigger tall tale by Powell at the UN. > > And if you are referring to Iraq as a cause of the middle east spring, I would have to say that it has been harder for the protesters to demand reform in \*\*Iraq \*\*as others are doing elsewhere, thanks to the corrupting mess and unrest we are leaving. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022601854.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022601854.html) No if anything Iraq’s government is not as authoritarian as formerly that of Egypt or Tunisia, yet it has succeedeed in keeping order far better. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/47 "2011-06-24T00:18:07Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/48 "2011-06-24T00:27:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We can ally with India and cut off all aid to the Paks, and if things keep going where they are I think the US ought to do it. Are the only two options for every issue in your universe a kiss and a knife in the neck? Why do you think our foreign policy goals will be enacted if we piss of Pakistan? Do you think there will be more or less stability in the region if we piss them off? Do you think they will embrace more or less radicalism if we piss them off? > [@](#): > > No if anything Iraq’s government is not as authoritarian as formerly that of Egypt or Tunisia, yet it has succeedeed in keeping order far better. It has kept order with the help of Coalition (heh) soldiers and a costly war that killed upwards of a hundred thousand of their people. When did hundreds of thousands of western soldiers keep the peace in Egypt? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/49 "2011-06-24T00:34:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Are the only two options for every issue in your universe a kiss and a knife in the neck? Why do you think our foreign policy goals will be enacted if we piss of Pakistan? Do you think there will be more or less stability in the region if we piss them off? Do you think they will embrace more or less radicalism if we piss them off? By allying fully with India will we have the world’s largest democracy as a friend, and India does have influence in Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > It has kept order with the help of Coalition (heh) soldiers and a costly war that killed upwards of a hundred thousand of their people. When did hundreds of thousands of western soldiers keep the peace in Egypt? I mean its keeping the peace right now and Egypt is far more homogenous than Iraq anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/50 "2011-06-24T00:42:38Z")
Just leave the place and never go back. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/51 "2011-06-24T00:46:04Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > By allying fully with India will we have the world’s largest democracy as a friend, and India does have influence in Afghanistan. We are allies with India. And India’s influence in Afghanistan is far, far, less than the people who actually share a border, language and cultural heritage with it. So your plan is to take a country that already has trouble fighting the radical Taliban elements in its western parts and piss it off and make it so the Pakistani on the street hates America. Don’t take this the wrong way, but that’s not really striking me as a great idea. > [@](#): > > I mean its keeping the peace right now and Egypt is far more homogenous than Iraq anyways. Yeah, but we killed off a lot of the people who would have roused the rabble. I’m glad Iraq has what appears to be a functioning government, but the cost was great, especially since the Arab Spring might have toppled Saddam without as great a loss of life (not to mention the cost in dollars we’ve had to pay). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/52 "2011-06-24T01:08:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As others have said that’s a very inaccurate assessment. Sam and others have used that magazine before to support their points in the past. But only one called it inaccurate, without looking at why are the reasons why Iraq is where it is. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/53 "2011-06-24T01:11:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course I don’t think most Iraqis want to go back to Hussein II either. As Miller said: > [@Miller](#): > > If you guys had invaded the States in 2002, put George Bush’s head on a spike, and declared the US a vassal of the Greater Canadian Empire, I’d have been happy George Bush was gone, too. That doesn’t mean I’d view your conquest of my nation as desirable or justified. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/54 "2011-06-24T01:14:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > We are allies with India. And India’s influence in Afghanistan is far, far, less than the people who actually share a border, language and cultural heritage with it. > > So your plan is to take a country that already has trouble fighting the radical Taliban elements in its western parts and piss it off and make it so the Pakistani on the street hates America. Don’t take this the wrong way, but that’s not really striking me as a great idea. No, if Pakistan continues its ungrateful behaviour, we’ll cut off all aid to them and as a result we can be for comfortable in supporting India. We certainly won’t go to war against them or impose sanctions or anything. > [@](#): > > Yeah, but we killed off a lot of the people who would have roused the rabble. I’m glad Iraq has what appears to be a functioning government, but the cost was great, especially since the Arab Spring might have toppled Saddam without as great a loss of life (not to mention the cost in dollars we’ve had to pay). On the other hand Hussein might simply have suppressed the rebellion or the revolution might have established an Iran-style theocracy or there might have been no Arab Spring due to the Butterfly Effect. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sam and others have used that magazine before to support their points in the past. But only one called it inaccurate, without looking at why are the reasons why Iraq is where it is. Again considering some of the rankings of other countries, I can’t see how that assessment is exactly dependable. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/55 "2011-06-24T01:18:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As Miller said: That assumes somehow that George W Bush was comparable to a mass murderer like Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/56 "2011-06-24T01:28:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That assumes somehow that George W Bush was comparable to a mass murderer like Hussein. He IS a mass murderer just like Hussein. Just ask all the dead Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/57 "2011-06-24T01:35:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He IS a mass murderer just like Hussein. Just ask all the dead Iraqis. The vast majority of Iraqis died from sectarian conflict as noted. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/58 "2011-06-24T01:46:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The vast majority of Iraqis died from sectarian conflict as noted. Conflict which occurred because of us. And there were plenty of deaths from disease and untreated injuries and general disorder. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/59 "2011-06-24T01:48:35Z")
Hannah Arendt shakes her head at this thread. You were barely alive when this started and you’re already so well programmed, so casual with your plans for visiting death upon others. Why are you worried though? Obama is gonna leave office with more troops in Afghanistan than when he started. The U.S. is gonna kill a lot more anonymous people on the other side of the planet for years and years for extremely dubious reasons, so don’t fret. “We” (hahaha!) will be there, and Iraq, for the foreseeable future. I can understand why drone bombings just doesn’t give the same visceral thrill, but you can have both. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/60 "2011-06-24T01:48:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Conflict which occurred because of us. And there were plenty of deaths from disease and untreated injuries and general disorder. None of which is the same as Hussein directly ordering killings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=4)