# Is The Withdrawal of Surge Troops A Mistake **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569 "2011-06-23T16:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/61 "2011-06-24T01:50:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The vast majority of Iraqis died from sectarian conflict as noted. Sectarian conflict precipitated by what, **Curtis**? How much of a pretzel are you willing to twist the facts to fit your assertions? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/62 "2011-06-24T01:53:15Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Sectarian conflict precipitated by what, **Curtis**? How much of a pretzel are you willing to twist the facts to fit your assertions? Again we didn’t plan to cause a sectarian conflict. At worst the US was negligent. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/63 "2011-06-24T02:02:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Again considering some of the rankings of other countries, I can’t see how that assessment is exactly dependable. And that is still depending on a fallacy to dismiss it. > [@](#): > > The new edition of the index draws on some 130,000 publicly available sources to analyze 177 countries and rate them on 12 indicators of pressure on the state during the year 2010 – from refugee flows to poverty, public services to security threats. Taken together, a country’s performance on this battery of indicators tells us how stable – or unstable – it is. And the latest results show how much the 2008 economic crisis and its ripple effects everywhere, from collapsing trade to soaring food prices to stagnant investment, are still haunting the world. It is not just economics what they use for the index. The index also includes legitimacy of the government (democracy in other words) and human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/64 "2011-06-24T02:07:12Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Again we didn’t plan to cause a sectarian conflict. At worst the US was negligent. We destroyed all the mechanisms they had to keep order, wrecked their infrastructure, and let them fester in the rubble. We did our best to cripple them by forbidding the puppet government we set up to do anything useful so we could use them as an experimental lab for “greed is good, government is bad” libertarianism. “Neglect” :rolleyes: Bush and his fellow warmongers are mass murdering monsters. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/65 "2011-06-24T02:20:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No, if Pakistan continues its ungrateful behaviour, we’ll cut off all aid to them and as a result we can be for comfortable in supporting India. .. Some of the “us” in “we” might just not be feeling all that comfortable about what Pakistan might decide to do with the nukes they have . . . YMOV. > [@](#): > > … Estimated Pakistani nuclear weapons is probably in the neighborhood of more than 200 by the end of 2009. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)[/RIGHT] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/66 "2011-06-24T02:27:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We destroyed all the mechanisms they had to keep order, wrecked their infrastructure, and let them fester in the rubble. We did our best to cripple them by forbidding the puppet government we set up to do anything useful so we could use them as an experimental lab for “greed is good, government is bad” libertarianism. “Neglect” :rolleyes: > > Bush and his fellow warmongers are mass murdering monsters. No, Iraq was not a labotory for neo-liberalism-that was Chile under Pinochet (and it worked great actually) and what you said also applies to Germany after World War II and there was no mass insurgency there. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Some of the “us” in “we” might just not be feeling all that comfortable about what Pakistan might decide to do with the nukes they have . . . YMOV. > > CMC fnord! Unless we attack Pakistan or something they have little reason to use nukes against us. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/67 "2011-06-24T02:33:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No, Iraq was not a labotory for neo-liberalism-that was Chile under Pinochet (and it worked great actually) and what you said also applies to Germany after World War II and there was no mass insurgency there. I said libertarianism, not neo-liberalism. And Chile under Pinochet was a murderous tyranny - but then, not being American they aren’t really human so their lives and freedom don’t matter, right? And Germany certainly wasn’t treated like Iraq; we didn’t let them rot under the assumption the Magic Free Market would solve all problems. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/68 "2011-06-24T02:36:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because the task is now largely conditioning the Afghan populace against terrorism. And the Taliban does not have support of the most of the people of Afghanistan considering its largely Pashtun and Afghanistan is not majority Pashtun. And why was the U.S. occupation unable to accomplish this within the last decade? Actually removing the Taliban from power and installing Karzai took months; for the rest of the time, the U.S. occupation has been doing… what? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/69 "2011-06-24T02:37:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Do you think anything different is really going on now, or will if we stay another 10 years? There’s a good chance it wouldn’t be much different in 10 years. I just don’t think we should mince words. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course politicians determine tax rates and trade policy too not economists and politicians determine environmental policy not scientists. But at the same time all good leaders know the wisdom of listening to experts. Yes. You consult with advisers and then make a decision. That doesn’t mean you do whatever your advisers tell you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/70 "2011-06-24T02:38:04Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That assumes somehow that George W Bush was comparable to a mass murderer like Hussein. It’s an epidemiological fact that many, many more Iraqis have died because of Bush and the Republicans than would have died had things been left alone. Also, both Hussein and Bush support torture. And retaliating against the civilians of Fallujah because freedom fighters killed some of the invading mercenaries is a war crime. Bush should be executed for it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/71 "2011-06-24T02:39:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I said libertarianism, not neo-liberalism. And Chile under Pinochet was a murderous tyranny - but then, not being American they aren’t really human so their lives and freedom don’t matter, right? And Iraq certainly wasn’t trying to be Randtopia. > [@](#): > > And Germany certainly wasn’t treated like Iraq; we didn’t let them rot under the assumption the Magic Free Market would solve all problems. We gave plenty of aid to Iraq, we certainly didn’t leave them be/ > [@hansel](#): > > And why was the U.S. occupation unable to accomplish this within the last decade? Actually removing the Taliban from power and installing Karzai took months; for the rest of the time, the U.S. occupation has been doing… what? Keeping the Taliban down and making sure there is no safe haven for Al-Qaeda/ > [@Marley23](#): > > There’s a good chance it wouldn’t be much different in 10 years. I just don’t think we should mince words. > Yes. You consult with advisers and then make a decision. That doesn’t mean you do whatever your advisers tell you. Of course that’s lawful, I’m just saying it may not be the wisest course of action ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/72 "2011-06-24T02:42:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course that’s lawful, I’m just saying it may not be the wisest course of action I was responding to your criticism that > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > the main supporters of the President’s new plan are politicians not military men and is largely for political reasons. There’s nothing wrong with political reasons being involved, and the fact that the main supporters aren’t military men is not a knock on the decision. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/73 "2011-06-24T02:48:01Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And Iraq certainly wasn’t trying to be Randtopia. Of course not, that was our idea. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We gave plenty of aid to Iraq, we certainly didn’t leave them be/ Nonsense. We funneled money to cronies of the Bush Administration and built military bases while we let the Iraqis scrabble in the rubble. And we forbid their puppet government from doing anything to help, because we were sure that a legion of corporations would show up eager to do business in a warzone. No need for the government to help anyone instead of the almighty private sector! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/74 "2011-06-24T02:54:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was responding to your criticism that > There’s nothing wrong with political reasons being involved, and the fact that the main supporters aren’t military men is not a knock on the decision. I know, > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course not, that was our idea. > > Nonsense. We funneled money to cronies of the Bush Administration and built military bases while we let the Iraqis scrabble in the rubble. And we forbid their puppet government from doing anything to help, because we were sure that a legion of corporations would show up eager to do business in a warzone. No need for the government to help anyone instead of the almighty private sector! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic\_reform\_of\_Iraq](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_reform_of_Iraq) No the US just removed cumbersome regulations which retarded Iraq’s economic progress (such as ban on foreign companies). > [@](#): > > In a December 2006 Newsweek International article, a study by Global Insight in London was reported to show “that Civil war or not, Iraq has an economy, and—mother of all surprises—it’s doing remarkably well. Real estate is booming. Construction, retail and wholesale trade sectors are healthy, too, according to [the report]. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce reports 34,000 registered companies in Iraq, up from 8,000 three years ago. Sales of secondhand cars, televisions and mobile phones have all risen sharply. Estimates vary, but one from Global Insight puts GDP growth at 17 percent last year and projects 13 percent for 2006. The World Bank has it lower: at 4 percent this year. But, given all the attention paid to deteriorating security, the startling fact is that Iraq is growing at all.”[18] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/75 "2011-06-24T02:59:40Z")
Can we stick to the Afghanistan withdrawal rather than rearguing Iraq again? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/76 "2011-06-24T03:06:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Can we stick to the Afghanistan withdrawal rather than rearguing Iraq again? He started it (Just kidding) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/77 "2011-06-24T03:06:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No the US just removed cumbersome regulations which retarded Iraq’s economic progress (such as ban on foreign companies). Regardless of whether or not they wanted such regulations or not. Or the ability to tax those foreign corporations or regulate their imports and exports. And yes, the US forbid the Iraqi “government” from doing anything to help its people. As well as crippling them by mass firings and mandating an extremely low tax rate. We tried to wipe the slate clean, to destroy Iraqi society in order to remake them as Libertopia, and we didn’t care in the slightest how much they suffered, how many died, or whether they wanted to be our experimental animals. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/78 "2011-06-24T03:42:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Again we didn’t plan to cause a sectarian conflict. At worst the US was negligent. It doesn’t matter whether or not we planned the sectarian conflict. We caused it. Period. Should a rapist be absolved for killing his victim because he didn’t plan to do it? Come on, **Curtis**. And negligence was just the tip of a very jagged-edged and poisoned iceberg. What the US did in Iraq and to the Iraqi people was nothing less than criminal. To get back to the OP, yes, the US should leave Afghanistan, and the sooner the better. Our stated goal has been accomplished. It’s time to claim victory and come home before another inestimable number of American service people are killed and maimed for no bloody good reason. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/79 "2011-06-24T03:51:42Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] We tried to wipe the slate clean, to destroy Iraqi society in order to remake them as Libertopia, and we didn’t care in the slightest how much they suffered, how many died, or whether they wanted to be our experimental animals. [/QUOTE] What Iraqi society? They were being held (unwillingly, as it turned out) together by Saddam et al…who also didn’t exactly ask them if they wanted him to be their dictator. The Iraqis didn’t ask the Kuwaitis whether or not they wanted to be annexed and made a part of Iraq either…nor did the Kurds or Shia ask to be gassed by Saddam and his henchmen. They weren’t given any choices about any of this stuff. At least nominally they have some choices now. They paid for those choices in blood and fire (though they weren’t asked if they WANTED to pay to get nominal choices either), so hopefully they will make good ones. Here’s the thing…look at what’s going on in Libya and Syria right now. Or what happened in Egypt. Or what little we know is going on in Iran right now. Picture what it would be like in Iraq today if Saddam was still in charge. Do you think it would be more like what happened in Egypt or what’s happening in Libya, Syria and Iran? And if there was an Arab Spring thingy going on in Iraq, what do you suppose the US and NATO would be doing? What we are doing in Syria and Iran (i.e. nothing) or what we are doing in Libya? The Iraqis got their Arab Spring early, and they didn’t get a choice about it…but it would have come sooner or later because eventually even an iron fist isn’t enough to keep people down, and Iraq was a pressure cooker waiting to explode. Unfortunately WE were the stupid ones who went and set it off, but eventually it was going to go off one way or the other. (I thought this thread was about Afghanistan…why are we refighting the Iraq war AGAIN?? 😕) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/80 "2011-06-24T04:08:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What Iraqi society? Oh, please. Do you think they ran around naked as solitary hunter-gatherers before our conquest? Of course they had and have a society. Despite our attempts to destroy it. > [@xtisme](#): > > At least nominally they have some choices now. They paid for those choices in blood and fire (though they weren’t asked if they WANTED to pay to get nominal choices either), so hopefully they will make good ones. We didn’t give them any choices, we deliberately tried to forbid them choices. We wrote what we wanted into their laws. We tried to burn their culture away and replace it with a Republican fantasy, but they resisted. > [@xtisme](#): > > The Iraqis got their Arab Spring early, and they didn’t get a choice about it…but it would have come sooner or later because eventually even an iron fist isn’t enough to keep people down, and Iraq was a pressure cooker waiting to explode. Unfortunately WE were the stupid ones who went and set it off, but eventually it was going to go off one way or the other. Laying waste to the country wasn’t any kind of “spring”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=5)