# Is The Withdrawal of Surge Troops A Mistake **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569 "2011-06-23T16:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/81 "2011-06-24T04:39:29Z")
xtisme, Dio mentioned Iraq in passing, but then Sam had to still reheat some old arguments and some new ones. I would only say about Iraq that I don’t think they had their Arab Spring until recently also, but then again, can you think how popular would the \*\*current \*\*protests in Iraq against corruption and inaction in government if the 2 million refugees that “voted” with their feet from 2004 on were still in Iraq? (notice that I’m not talking about Saddam being there, I’m referring to the mess we did) Anyway, Afghanistan is currently number 7 in the failed states index. > **[A Quick Guide To The Most Failed States In The World](https://www.businessinsider.com/a-quick-guide-to-the-most-failed-states-in-the-world-2011-6?op=1)** > > This guide highlights the world's most failed states, examining their challenges and the impact on global stability. > [@](#): > > Public services - 8.5 > Human rights - 8.8 > Refugees - 9.3 > Deligitmization of the state - 9.7 > > With President Obama announcing tomorrow his assessment of America’s nation-building project in Afghanistan, he might be interested to know that Afghans have absolutely no faith in the legitimacy of that government. Afghanistan plays host not only to an occupying army and a Taliban insurgency, but also to 90% of world’s opium supply. The country has so many problems nobody really knows where to begin. Those are the 4 highest scores from the 12 indicators they look at, with a possible 10 as the worse score. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/82 "2011-06-24T06:37:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Keeping the Taliban down and making sure there is no safe haven for Al-Qaeda/ And now that job is complete and they can get started on conditioning Afghanis against terrorism? You’ve still not made an argument why anyone should think that the U.S. can succeed now when they’ve failed to construct an exit-able Afghanistan for the last 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/83 "2011-06-24T07:00:00Z")
Yeah, I think at this point it’s clear our failure in Afghanistan isn’t because of insufficient boots on the ground, drones in the air, or cash down the toilet . . . it’s the incredibly small number of Skinner boxes we’ve sent them! 😉 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/84 "2011-06-24T09:48:59Z")
1. Support for Taliban is caused in large measure by unemployment and poverty. Had the U.S. spent even modest sums (compared with what it has spent in that country) on job creation, the Taliban would enjoy much less popularity. 2. The U.S. makes the same mistakes in Afghanistan it’s made elsewhere: backing corrupt politicians, and allowing most of the soldiers to act contemptuously toward the people they’re there to help. 3. Our important ally, Pakistan, supports the Taliban. Doesn’t this seem like a problem? 4. OP seems to assume that the Taliban, once back in power, will provide a haven for al-Qaeda. Might they not have instead learned a lesson? ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/85 "2011-06-24T09:52:13Z")
If we don’t move troops into Pakistan, we’re fooling ourselves. Funny, how we pick and choose our enemies. It’s like a popularity contest in reverse! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/86 "2011-06-24T10:40:02Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > If we don’t move troops into Pakistan, we’re fooling ourselves. Yeah- other than terrorists getting nuclear weapons, what’s the worst that could happen? ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/87 "2011-06-24T11:19:17Z")
If there is a way to win in Afghanistan maybe it will be that those under the nebulas title of Taliban really don’t want western forces operating in their country and so maybe they will learn not to let foreign terrorist organisations base themselves there. I can see that they might well have realised its best to keep the likes of Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan unless they want to see the return of western forces. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/88 "2011-06-24T12:38:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He started it (Just kidding) Ah, little\*\* Curtis\*\* is getting mad. Hey, does your school or your next school offer [Junior ROTC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Reserve_Officers'_Training_Corps)? Your’e just about old enough to get an early start on that military life that excites you so much. Then ROTC in college–unless you can swing one of the military academies. Even if there isn’t a war going on when you’re old enough to serve, you can still make a contribution. Or are you the type who would have talked up Preventing Those Dominoes Falling in Southeast Asia–while some mysterious ailment kept you out of uniform? (One of my uncles served under the real Curtis E LeMay in the 8th Air Force. My father, another vet of The Mighty Eighth, served in SAC after the War. But we only heard\* his \*LeMay stories from my Mom, since he didn’t survive The Cold War.) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/89 "2011-06-24T14:26:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 1. Support for Taliban is caused in large measure by unemployment and poverty. Had the U.S. spent even modest sums (compared with what it has spent in that country) on job creation, the Taliban would enjoy much less popularity. I agree, after keeping the violence the US should help industrialize and develop Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > 1. The U.S. makes the same mistakes in Afghanistan it’s made elsewhere: backing corrupt politicians, and allowing most of the soldiers to act contemptuously toward the people they’re there to help. US soldiers or Afghan government soldiers? And most Afghans realize its either corrupt politicians or the Taliban and most would prefer the former. > [@](#): > > 1. Our important ally, Pakistan, supports the Taliban. Doesn’t this seem like a problem? I agree, if Pakistan continues in its behaviour, we should cut of all aid. > [@](#): > > 1. OP seems to assume that the Taliban, once back in power, will provide a haven for al-Qaeda. Might they not have instead learned a lesson? They will learn the lesson that the US is not willing to fight to the bitter end. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Ah, little\*\* Curtis\*\* is getting mad. I was being sarcastic (highlight the rest) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/90 "2011-06-24T14:27:58Z")
If you cut off all aid to Pakistan, you have no leverage over what they do. Targeting the aid differently or reducing it would make more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/91 "2011-06-24T14:58:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I agree, if Pakistan continues in its behaviour, we should cut of all aid. What if General Petraeus thinks we should continue aid to Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/92 "2011-06-24T15:30:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And most Afghans realize its either corrupt politicians or the Taliban and most would prefer the former. Prove it. There’s very little difference between the behavior of our pet thugs and that of the Taliban. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > They will learn the lesson that the US is not willing to fight to the bitter end. It isn’t and they already know it. Nor should it, we aren’t Britain in WWII; we aren’t facing a serious threat to our existence, just a blow to our pride. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/93 "2011-06-24T16:36:54Z")
The military never wants to reduce troops. When have they ever not asked for more troops and money and weapons? When have they asked for a reduction? I wouldn’t put too much stock into what the military wants. We no longer have any obtainable goals in Afghanistan. Its time to go ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/94 "2011-06-24T22:22:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Prove it. There’s very little difference between the behavior of our pet thugs and that of the Taliban. We don’t ban TV, keep women in harems, and stone adulterers. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > The military never wants to reduce troops. When have they ever not asked for more troops and money and weapons? When have they asked for a reduction? I wouldn’t put too much stock into what the military wants. > > We no longer have any obtainable goals in Afghanistan. Its time to go It was the Department of Defence which declared various cuts in the military budget not a while ago. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/95 "2011-06-24T22:33:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We don’t ban TV, keep women in harems, and stone adulterers. I didn’t say “we”, I said our pet thugs. The woman oppressing, child raping thugs we are propping up. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/96 "2011-06-24T23:00:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I didn’t say “we”, I said our pet thugs. The woman oppressing, child raping thugs we are propping up. Those are only isolated incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/97 "2011-06-24T23:10:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Those are only isolated incidents. :rolleyes: Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/98 "2011-06-24T23:14:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Yeah, right. Simply put, the Taliban makes such actions _law_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/99 "2011-06-24T23:17:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Simply put, the Taliban makes such actions _law_. And? Even to the extent that our thugs don’t, what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/100 "2011-06-24T23:21:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And? Even to the extent that our thugs don’t, what difference does it make? The Afghan government for example supports girls going to school while the Taliban forbids it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=6)