# Is The Withdrawal of Surge Troops A Mistake **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569 "2011-06-23T16:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/121 "2011-06-27T14:48:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Far be it from me to put on rose colored glasses and say that Afghanistan is on the mend right now, but the idea that the current government is every bit as bad as the Taliban is not supported by non-partisan NGOs. If the most reputable voices for human rights says that the current government isn’t as bad as the Taliban, I would say that your conclusion is factually wrong. I agree. The argument that things are just as bad now as they were in the '90s is just intended to make this look like an easy decision when it isn’t. The current government is very corrupt and doesn’t have a lot of control, but overall, no, it is not as bad as the Taliban was. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/122 "2011-06-27T15:36:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > America is not guilty of those deaths! > America is not guilty of those deaths! > America is not guilty of those deaths! > America is not guilty of those deaths! > AMERICA IS NOT GUILTY OF THOSE DEATHS! > Hmm, that’s odd.. > No matter how many times you say it, or how loud, America is still responsible for those deaths. How is America guilty of those deaths exactly? Is America guilty for all the deaths by murder it has within its borders? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/123 "2011-06-27T15:39:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is America guilty for all the deaths by murder it has within its borders? If it had shot all the police, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/124 "2011-06-27T16:19:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How is America guilty of those deaths exactly? Is America guilty for all the deaths by murder it has within its borders? Whether one thinks of the U.S.'s role in the deaths of very large numbers of Iraqis as first degree premeditated murder (as some posters here seem inclined to believe), or involuntary manslaughter, how is it that you don’t think that the United States doesn’t have responsibility for the chaos and deaths that arose out of the war that we started? We started a war of choice, we failed to plan for how to get the country back on its feet, and chaos predictably erupted. How the US isn’t responsible for the chaos is beyond me – even Colin Powell famously told Bush before the invasion about the “Pottery Barn rule: We break it, we own it.” ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/125 "2011-06-27T16:27:07Z")
I really don’t think there’ll be a lot of difference between whatever government eventually runs Afghanistan and the taliban. As has already been pointed out our Northern Alliance allies were just as bad when they ran the country pre-Taliban and the people we’ve put in power post-Taliban are no angels either. In areas where we’ve pulled out and the Taliban have retaken the Taliban have been greeted as liberators because life under our guys was so unpleasant. Some aspects of life in some places might be better, some will be no different or worse. Overall, no real difference worth shouting about. And we really don’t give a shit about womens’ rights or human rights or whatever. We support horrific human rights abusers all over the world when it’s in our interest to do so, we were even quite happy to do business with the Taliban pre-9/11, we didn’t care at all about their horrible regime back when we were wanting to build oil and gas pipelines through Afghanistan. It’s insulting that we use human rights as an excuse to interfere in any part of the world when you look at all the scumbags we’ve dealt with and are still dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/126 "2011-06-28T02:41:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > We started a war of choice, we failed to plan for how to get the country back on its feet, and chaos predictably erupted. Oh, we had a plan. Sit back, forbid the puppet government from doing anything, and let the Magic of the Free Market solve all of Iraq’s problems and turn it into a shining beacon of libertarian capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/127 "2011-06-28T02:44:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, we had a plan. Sit back, forbid the puppet government from doing anything, and let the Magic of the Free Market solve all of Iraq’s problems and turn it into a shining beacon of libertarian capitalism. I violently disagree with the thing you said which is pretty much the thing I said using different words. How dare you, sir! I demand satisfaction! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/128 "2011-06-28T05:14:19Z")
I think we should all admit that withdrawal won’t work … we should have used a condom! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/129 "2011-06-28T14:18:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Whether one thinks of the U.S.'s role in the deaths of very large numbers of Iraqis as first degree premeditated murder (as some posters here seem inclined to believe), or involuntary manslaughter, how is it that you don’t think that the United States doesn’t have responsibility for the chaos and deaths that arose out of the war that we started? > > We started a war of choice, we failed to plan for how to get the country back on its feet, and chaos predictably erupted. How the US isn’t responsible for the chaos is beyond me – even Colin Powell famously told Bush before the invasion about the “Pottery Barn rule: We break it, we own it.” That is why we stayed in Iraq (despite the opposition of Democrats) and took hold of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/130 "2011-06-28T15:39:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > [QUOTE=Ravenman] > > Whether one thinks of the U.S.'s role in the deaths of very large numbers of Iraqis as first degree premeditated murder (as some posters here seem inclined to believe), or involuntary manslaughter, how is it that you don’t think that the United States doesn’t have responsibility for the chaos and deaths that arose out of the war that we started? > > We started a war of choice, we failed to plan for how to get the country back on its feet, and chaos predictably erupted. How the US isn’t responsible for the chaos is beyond me – even Colin Powell famously told Bush before the invasion about the “Pottery Barn rule: We break it, we own it.” That is why we stayed in Iraq (despite the opposition of Democrats) and took hold of the situation. [/QUOTE] From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > [A report] authored by US Republican Party lawyer Stuart Bowen, who is the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction … “depicts an effort crippled before the invasion by Pentagon planners who were hostile to the idea of rebuilding a foreign country, and then molded into a $100 billion failure by bureaucratic turf wars, spiraling violence and ignorance of the basic elements of Iraqi society and infrastructure.”… > > Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12–19, 2007, estimated 1,033,000 violent deaths due to the Iraq War. The range given was 946,000 to 1,120,000 deaths…The Lancet study’s figure of 654,965 excess deaths through the end of June 2006 … > > Five years after the invasion, an estimated 2.4 million people were internally displaced (with a further two million refugees outside Iraq), four million Iraqis were considered food-insecure (a quarter of children were chronically malnourished) and only a third of Iraqi children had access to safe drinking water… > > about 40% of Iraq’s middle class is believed to have fled and that most are fleeing systematic persecution and have no desire to return. Refugees are mired in poverty as they are generally barred from working in their host countries. Many were forced to force their women and children into prostitution to survive Does this sound like a success story? And by the way, I still don’t know why the U.S. invaded Iraq. Would a supporter of that adventure tell me, please? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/131 "2011-06-28T16:23:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That is why we stayed in Iraq (despite the opposition of Democrats) and took hold of the situation. Took hold of the situation that we weren’t responsible for? Seriously, you ought to get your story straight. It seems like you and George Bush are the only people in the world at this point who seem to want to believe that the United States comes out of the whole affair looking good. Even Donald Rumsfeld admits that mistakes were made… not his mistakes, of course, the whole Iraq mess was the State Department’s fault, you know. Is it chastening at all to think that your positions on the Iraq war are too ballsy to be supported by even Donald Rumsfeld? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/132 "2011-06-29T00:29:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Took hold of the situation that we weren’t responsible for? > > Seriously, you ought to get your story straight. It seems like you and George Bush are the only people in the world at this point who seem to want to believe that the United States comes out of the whole affair looking good. Even Donald Rumsfeld admits that mistakes were made… not his mistakes, of course, the whole Iraq mess was the State Department’s fault, you know. > > Is it chastening at all to think that your positions on the Iraq war are too ballsy to be supported by even Donald Rumsfeld? I didn’t say we didn’t make mistakes in Iraq, we did certainly especially in the first phase. But we cleaned up our own mess, which wouldn’t have happened had the Democrats had their way. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/133 "2011-06-29T11:08:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > … But we cleaned up our own mess, which wouldn’t have happened had the Democrats had their way. Didn’t read #130, did you? And as to what “wouldn’t have happened had the Democrats” been in charge, try the whole stupid misadventure. (Yes, I know Democrat Senators voted for the War, but that’s largely because they never suspected the Bush Administration could be so horrifically cynical at misrepresenting CIA analyses.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/134 "2011-06-29T11:15:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > But we cleaned up our own mess, which wouldn’t have happened had the Democrats had their way. No we haven’t. We haven’t rebuilt the damage, returned the people we drove out of the country, stopped the persecutions, or raised the people we murdered from the dead. We haven’t seriously tried to fix even what we could, and there’s a great deal we can’t fix. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/135 "2011-06-29T13:29:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Freedom House seems to have a different view that you. > > The time the Taliban was in charge, Freedom House gave Afghanistan the lowest ratings possible in terms of civil and political rights. Following the defeat of the Taliban, the country was getting better – significant improvements, but still not Sweden. In the last two years, things have gone backwards, but the country has not (yet?) regained the terrible ratings that the Taliban earned. > > Far be it from me to put on rose colored glasses and say that Afghanistan is on the mend right now, but the idea that the current government is every bit as bad as the Taliban is not supported by non-partisan NGOs. If the most reputable voices for human rights says that the current government isn’t as bad as the Taliban, I would say that your conclusion is factually wrong. It doesn’t really matter what these people spin things as. Christians are still being sentenced to death for apostacy and nothing has changed at all out in the sticks. Besides how long do you think these glimmers of freedoms will last once we are not there and the warlords start fighting each other, looting the economy and drug dealing without any constraint? EDIT - just read the Freedom House report. To summarise: Afghanistan still complete hell-hole ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/136 "2011-06-29T14:10:02Z")
So your rating system for the state of affairs in a country is based on a black and white scale, with no appreciation that, say, China is politically indistinguishable from North Korea, because they are both single party repressive states. The question isn’t whether you would like to live in one of those places, the issue is whether the Afghan government has improved since the late 1990s. And just like China is indeed a better place than North Korea, Afghanistan today is better than Afghanistan 15 years ago. That doesn’t mean that China or today’s Afghanistan do not need lots of improvement. I do find it somewhat unfortunate that you cannot appreciate that a respected, non-partisan expert group on political and civil rights like Freedom House is dismissed simply because it does not fit into your pre-determined political views. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/137 "2011-06-29T15:56:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Didn’t read #130, did you? And as to what “wouldn’t have happened had the Democrats” been in charge, try the whole stupid misadventure. (Yes, I know Democrat Senators voted for the War, but that’s largely because they never suspected the Bush Administration could be so horrifically cynical at misrepresenting CIA analyses.) It has been theorized on one website that Gore would have invaded Iraq anyway albeit after getting support of the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/138 "2011-06-29T16:09:54Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It has been theorized on one website that Gore would have invaded Iraq anyway albeit after getting support of the UN. Which website would that be? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/139 "2011-06-29T16:13:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Which website would that be? :dubious: [Reallysillyideas.com](http://Reallysillyideas.com)? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569/140 "2011-06-29T16:55:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It has been theorized on one website that Gore would have invaded Iraq anyway albeit after getting support of the UN. 😕 😕 :smack: If your source were a prestigious think tank, or a prominent columnist for a major newspaper, my reaction would be “So what? There are lots of analysts and commentators.” But instead your source is “one [unidentified] website [or blogger?]”. My reaction is: “_Is this a joke?_” It has been theorized on one website that Dick Cheney fries children’s eyeballs for breakfast. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-withdrawal-of-surge-troops-a-mistake/586569.md?page=8)