If we humans are good at anything, it’s using previously inoffensive words to marginalize people and make them feel like shit.
I think the OP sent this down the wrong path by thinking the offensive part was the word “imbecile.” But it’s the poll itself that is offensive. You could replace “imbecile” with any non-offensive word referring to disabled people, and the poll would still be just as offensive.
Yeah.
I think the word is iffy, and should usually be avoided. But the poll was just plain nasty.
I also agree with @TroutMan, the offensive part was making light of disabled people, not the specific word used. I’d rather not joke about what sort of people are capable of controlling their involuntary functions.
As others have mentioned, the context is important. In this case, somebody had used the term dribbling imbecile in another poll. Somebody else questioned whether dribbling was the correct word and suggested it should be driveling imbecile. A third person started a poll asking whether imbeciles dribbled saliva, urine, or basketballs. It was this third post which got the mod note.
I did not make any of these posts. But I feel the intent was to make a joke about the previous posts not to make fun of any people.
Absolutely, I agree. But jokes can still be offensive. The fact that it’s a joke isn’t a get-out-of-jail-free card.
When we’re talking about people dribbling urine and saliva, that’s a clear enough picture that we’re all thinking about folks with severe mental impairments, not just an asshole politician. If someone uses that mental image as a chance to make a lighthearted joke, that doesn’t sit well with me: I find it pretty objectifying.
I suspect that @Karen_Lingel meant no harm, but just didn’t think through the joke. If she made a habit of using folks with disabilities as the butt of her jokes, a warning would be more appropriate; as it is, the note seems just fine, and in no way do I feel like it stops me from calling Rudy Giuliani a goddamned moron.
I feel like there are two opposing forces here, and the key is finding a balance between the two.
On the one hand, there has been an effort for this site to be more inclusive and less casually toxic. The site used to have a big problem with misogyny (which was probably mostly a reflection of the general tone of the internet at large), and there have been times when homophobia, transphobia, and so on were more accepted here. A number of folks left and others might have chosen to not participate seeing some of that talk. A deliberate effort was made to change some of that and while the board is not perfect (and never will be) it does seem better. I feel like the moderation referenced here is part of that effort and is commendable.
On the other hand, we don’t want a “gotcha”, where a word that is used casually and uncontroversially in regular speech under most contexts is turned into a surprise taboo. That sort of thing can lead to people walking on eggshells, and that can lead to the same sorts of consequences as openly toxic speech. (People leaving, people feeling uncomfortable to participate here, people seeing this site and saying “no thank you”.)
I do think that we have to look at these things in context to maintain that balance. As many of the most recent posts in this thread have indicated, it’s not the word itself that’s prohibited. It was the way it was used, and the fact that there was a great deal of specificity where it was made clear that this wasn’t the casual “foolish behavior” reference, but a blatant reference to people with cognitive impairments and making them a source of mockery and the butt of a joke.
So the answer to the OP seems to be, no, it’s not a prohibited word. It’s not automatically a reference to people with a mental disability. But if you make it very clear that you are using it in that way, then your offensive behavior (not simply the word itself) might lead to moderation. That’s what I’ve gathered from the mod responses and others in this thread.
I concur.
Yeah that’s nice but IRL it isnt. Handicapped parking spaces are a thing. It’s not a people with disabilities parking spot. Maybe it might become so, but “crippled” finally went the way of the dodo, things like this take time. You cant change the way people write or speak with a wave of a pen.
Right, but I suppose it has always been implied (if not explicitly stated) when a politician or whomever is called an idiot, or a moron, or cretin, or imbecile, etc ad nauseam the problem is really the fact that said individual is presumably not afflicted with a congenital birth defect and thus, has no excuse. The corollary to that is we should not insult say, the idiots by comparing politicians to them, since they were born that way. Extensive education, or years in Washington, DC., are perhaps required.
In a similar way, while I have never served in the Navy, I always am ever watchful for people complaining about Congress “spending like drunken Sailors”. Au contraire, Sailors are spending their own money. Not a fair comparison at all. What are these … creatures to be called then?
Spending like it’s their rich parents’ money.
It may not be to you but it is to the ADA site I linked to.
Do you think it is you who decides what is offensive?
mmm
Over a mod note?
If we were talking about instabanning, or even about subject bans, you’d have a point. Just how upset is it reasonable for somebody to get over a mod note . . . oh, never mind. I read ATMB, people get upset over mod notes all the time.
For what it’s worth, in my line of work (civil engineering/site design) we call them ADA stalls or accessible stalls.
Thank you for that last bit. It is the reality.
And hey, the poster modnoted has not complained. This is someone else wondering what the deal is, a fair question. I believe we’ll have a reply tomorrow. We’re still trying to circle our wagons or whatever that saying is.
Also, not official, but seriously, drop the side bit about handicapped parking spots. It has little to do with this thread and is threatening to become a hijack.
Why not? A mod note is a “don’t do this again” message, which if repeated can lead to harsher sanctions; a warning, perhaps a suspension or ban if repeated. The question is more about what sort of thing is going to be moderated.
But it’s a bit moot in any way if the board has no forbidden words, and to my knowledge it still doesn’t. Even the most sensitive words (those rarely used outside of the context of a nasty slur) should still be acceptable in the proper context.
This is correct.
I’m coincidentally reading a book now called Imbeciles that is about Eugenics in America. There were “scientific” labels for certain people that included Idiot, Moron, Imbecile. The goal was to eradicate these people.
Per Meriam-Webster:
Idiots. —Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years.
Imbeciles. —Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years.
Morons. —Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.
— Edmund Burke Huey, Backward and Feeble-Minded Children , 1912
Of course not, this is the problem. “Crippled” wasn’t intended as a perjorative was it?
Handicapped was considered briefly as perfectly acceptable. “Special Needs” found its adherents for a while. Then “Differently Abled” was de rigeur. Tough to keep up without a program!
Nope. But neither does the ADA. General usage decides.
Exactly.
True.
I guess I just think that ‘people get upset about modnotes, therefore moderators shouldn’t give them’ is a good way to approach such issues.
Well, yeah. If one determinedly keeps doing something the mods asked them to quit doing, at that point the issue isn’t only the original problem; it’s refusing moderation.
But to say that people are afraid to post anything for fear of getting a modnote – that really seems to me to be a wild overreaction. I’m pretty sure I got one once, I think for posting something not suitable for FQ in a FQ thread. I didn’t think ‘Oh no! This is terrible! I might be kicked off the board any minute! I don’t dare post anything at all!’ I checked to see that I thought I understood the issue and figured I ought to be more careful what forum I was posting in in the future. I don’t go in terror of possibly accidentally posting something not suitable for a given forum in the future – not because I’m sure it’ll never happen again (it might, I often don’t know what forum I’m reading, though I now try to remember to check before posting), but because if I’m not doing it over and over frequently despite repeated notes and/or even a warning what’s the worst that’s going to happen? Oh no – another modnote! Possibly even a warning if I managed to make a habit of it!
But I’m certainly not worried that it would turn into a permaban without notice because I misstepped even one more time.