# Is the word "Welshing" offensive conversation **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2023, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549 "2023-01-02T10:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/1 "2023-01-02T10:09:21Z")
> [@Sister got bonded out of jail by her boyfriend and now her boyfriend wants me to pay him back, am I responsible?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sister-got-bonded-out-of-jail-by-her-boyfriend-and-now-her-boyfriend-wants-me-to-pay-him-back-am-i-responsible/977302/27): > > Really? I had no idea. No, not really. At least, every dictionary I’ve ever consulted indicates that the etymology is uncertain, and sometimes also that any link to the Welsh people is dubious. If @engineer_comp_geek has uncovered evidence firmly establishing the word’s origin, I can introduce them to some very interested lexicographers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/2 "2023-01-02T17:08:24Z")
On the other hand the Welsh – at least according to the same dictionaries – seem to regard it as offensive, so is it best avoided anyway? I personally have always categorized it in my head with verbs derived from the words Gypsy and Jew, regardless of whether the etymology is supported. And while I see no good support that welsh comes from Welsh, are there any good arguments that it doesn’t (or why it wouldn’t be plausible) and/or are there any other possible etymological sources mentioned? > Etymologists can find no firm evidence that the verb _welsh_ , meaning “ to swindle a person by not paying a debt " or " to fail to fulfill an obligation , " is derived from _Welsh_ , the people of _Wales_ . However, many Welsh themselves harbor no doubt on this subject and hold the verb to be a pointed slur. It makes sense then to avoid this informal term in ordinary discourse […] From “The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage” , 2005 ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/3 "2023-01-02T19:24:07Z")
Funny thing is that the Anglo-Saxon word _wealsc_ from which we get the name “Welsh” means “foreigner” or “slave” and I’ve always found it odd that nobody kicks up a fuss at calling themselves a foreigner while in their own country and having what would seem to be a super offensive name spread far and wide. \*_shrugs_\* But what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/4 "2023-01-02T19:33:27Z")
An early example of the “reclaiming” phenomenon? But probably more plausible that the etymology of the word was just forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/5 "2023-01-02T19:42:59Z")
I doubt it was forgotten, just that the Cymry didn’t have the power to make the change. Wonder if they’ll get around to it? Maybe after Scotland defects to the EU lol. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/6 "2023-01-02T19:43:36Z")
Or that the dominant culture imposes its language. ETA: replying to @Riemann ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/7 "2023-01-02T19:47:12Z")
Good point. I’m being slow here - I assume that the word _in Welsh_ for the Welsh people is etymologically unrelated? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/8 "2023-01-02T19:50:37Z")
Yes, “Cymru” (Wales) and “Cymry” (Welsh people) are the same word: com- “together” + bro “country”—loosely, “fellow countrymen.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/9 "2023-01-02T19:48:37Z")
It’s certainly not forgotten. “Cymru,” “Cymraeg,” and “Cymro / Cymry” are increasingly used in English, though not very often for Cymro and I don’t think I’ve seen Cymraes in English. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/10 "2023-01-02T19:56:46Z")
Just to add another tangent, the Perfect Master himself was once taken to task for using _welsh_ as “to cheat”, in a [1992 column.](https://www.straightdope.com/21341959/why-can-t-prince-rainier-become-a-king) His response was, of course, exactly as you would expect: > [@Cecil Adams](#): > > Dear Cecil: > > As a Welsh-American, I am deeply offended by your use of the ethnic slur “welshed.” What is your factual basis for stereotyping Welsh people as a race who fail to honor their obligations? You owe the people of Wales an immediately apology. > > — Malcolm Solomon, Palo Alto, California > > OK, I apologize. Next time I’ll say they “malcolmed” on the deal. > > Cecil Adams ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/11 "2023-01-02T20:03:42Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > exactly as you would expect Hmm… I expect snark, that’s more just being a jerk about it, even if the letter was a bit hyperbolic. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/12 "2023-01-02T20:39:34Z")
**Please note** : hijacks of threads like you started with this post are not appreciated. Please avoid them in the future and start a new thread instead. About the only exception is MPSIMS and only sometimes there. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/13 "2023-01-02T22:44:55Z")
As an American I’ve never heard of “welshing” on a debt. I’ve always heard “welching”. Though apparently both spellings/pronunciations are used. The earliest entry for the term in the OED, going back to 1860, cited “welching”. > **[The Grammarphobia Blog: To welsh on a bet](https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2021/02/welsh.html)** > > Is the use of “welsh,” meaning to renege on a bet, a slur against the people of Wales? I’d never thought it was offensive because I never knew it referred to any ethnicity or nationality, aside from perhaps the company that makes Welch’s grape jelly. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/14 "2023-01-03T00:33:38Z")
I finally asked my Welsh spouse. He believes that it does refer to the Welsh people, and that it is offensive. Sample size = 1, and an opinion at that, but something. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/15 "2023-01-03T03:02:11Z")
You understood his response? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/16 "2023-01-03T03:06:07Z")
Yes: I don’t understand yours, though. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/17 "2023-01-03T03:11:56Z")
I’ve never associated welching (reneging) with the Welsh. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/18 "2023-01-03T03:15:56Z")
A meme regarding Welsh language. It was meant as a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/19 "2023-01-03T03:49:12Z")
A friend of mine has a Welsh husband. I got it. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549/20 "2023-01-03T04:36:55Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > As an American I’ve never heard of “welshing” on a debt. I’ve always heard “welching”. Though apparently both spellings/pronunciations are used. > > The earliest entry for the term in the OED, going back to 1860, cited “welching”. > > … > > I’d never thought it was offensive because I never knew it referred to any ethnicity or nationality, aside from perhaps the company that makes Welch’s grape jelly. « Welch » is an old, alternative spelling for Welsh: > **[Royal Welch Fusiliers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Welch_Fusiliers)** > > 4–12 Volunteer and Territorial battalions > The Royal Welch Fusiliers (Welsh: Ffiwsilwyr Brenhinol Cymreig) was a line infantry regiment of the British Army, and part of the Prince of Wales' Division, that was founded in 1689; shortly after the Glorious Revolution. In 1702, it was designated a fusilier regiment and became the Welch Regiment of Fusiliers; the prefix "Royal" was added in 1713, then confirmed in 1714 when George I named it the Prince of Wales's Own Royal Regiment of Welsh Fusiliers... I have Welsh ancestry, and have always understood this usage to be an ethnic slur. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-word-welshing-offensive-conversation/977549.md?page=2)