# Is the working class disappearing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 10, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057 "2016-06-10T22:27:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/21 "2016-06-13T19:48:04Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > There also used to be a lot of jobs in my grandparents’ day where mastery of high-school level reading, writing, and math could get you a desk job. You could go to virtually any company, pass the literacy test, and get _trained_ to push paper. Now, you have to have three years experience pushing the exact kind of paper just to be _considered_. I have often wondered about corporate America’s reluctance to hire entry level workers. I mean out of 4 “real” IT/computing jobs in my career, along with a short contracting stint, one job was primarily populated with mid-career people, and hired me as an entry level worker because I would work for cheap. Second job didn’t hire ANYONE who wasn’t already experienced in some fashion. Third job was actually a consulting job, and while we interviewed some, we didn’t actually hire any entry level college grads. And most perplexing of all, the past 8 years in a mid-sized IT department (100-300 people, depending on when), we haven’t hired ANY entry-level college grads that I’m aware of. The closest we’ve come is to hire some entry level help-desk types. But no junior DBAs right out of school, no trainee developers, no trainee network people, no trainee business analysts, nothing. Everyone has to come in experienced. I figure that there’s some degree of this going on everywhere; it’s like they don’t see the positives of hiring entry-level college grads for a lot of positions, but only the downsides. I don’t know if it’s a response to a large worker pool - “why hire entry level if you can get experience?” or if it’s a bias against training people or dealing with untrained workers. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/22 "2016-06-13T19:56:58Z")
**Is the working class disappearing?** Or is the definition of it changing? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/23 "2016-06-13T20:52:47Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Where do you put retail workers? Since I was one for years I can say that you’re either working class if you’re full time (or close to full time) or underclass if you work part time. I worked around 30 hours a week (or as many hours as they could legally work me without giving me benefits) and I was able to barely live without public assistance making at or barely above minimum wage. I had part time coworkers who were either married and making a bit of spending money or on some kind of welfare (SSI generally) and couldn’t make more money without losing that welfare. I eventually got into entry-level IT where I’d be considered lower middle class, now as an experienced IT person making more than double what I made when I started I’m comfortably middle-middle class. Since my wife also works and makes a wage similar to mine we’re living as upper middle class I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/24 "2016-06-13T22:43:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Occupation is particularly hideous; what if someone’s a specialized Lamborghini tuner mechanic who makes $120,000 a year? Is he still “working class” because he turns a wrench for a living? > > I think it’s better defined in terms of the lifestyle that is enabled- that way, it’s not based on occupations, or on somewhat hard to compare things like income- region and number of dependents make income somewhat hard to compare. For example, a household with 2 parents and one child living in New York City making $75,000 a year may be significantly worse off than one with 2 parents and two kids living in Norman, OK making the same amount of money. Speaking of US society, it’s not classless as it traditionally aspires to be, and everyone knows this. However class is still ambiguous in the US except at the very bottom. I take your points on the weakness of any one economic measure (a $ of income doesn’t buy the same lifestyle everywhere, though OTOH some people live a given lifestyle spending every penny they earn and more but others, albeit fewer, live the same lifestyle well below their means) of class. But I don’t think US _socio_-economic class can just be measured economically. Charles Murray, not to rely on him too much for serious things, has that interesting quiz that people in the US now use to see, supposedly, if they are in ‘the elite bubble’ in the political discussion. It’s somewhat hokey and inaccurate IMO, broadens to things some would say are beyond ‘class’, but it’s generally indicative of the divide, outside the underclass, of the broad relatively upper strata still doing better and better in the US, and the lower part of the non-underclass who aren’t doing better and better. That might be the most relevant three way divide. IMO it’s silly to talk about upper class, not one in a 100 people in the US even in the infamous 1% think of _themselves_ as ‘upper class’, and typically aren’t a lot different in tastes and outlook from a large number of upper middle class people. Somewhere toward the bottom of upper middle class is where a serious divide is arising, socially too. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/25 "2016-06-14T06:16:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No. China has plenty of folks in the working class working in American owned factories. Most of the giant, American factories here are joint ventures (JVs), and so aren’t really and truly American-owned. Our engineers are typically middle class, and the hourly workers are working class. In our US/Canadian plants, though, the hourly workers would very solidly be middle class, even socially. There are some rednecks, certainly, that preserve their working class attitudes, but most of the hourly workers are pretty much just like me. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/26 "2016-06-14T15:12:18Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Speaking of US society, it’s not classless as it traditionally aspires to be, and everyone knows this. However class is still ambiguous in the US except at the very bottom. I take your points on the weakness of any one economic measure (a $ of income doesn’t buy the same lifestyle everywhere, though OTOH some people live a given lifestyle spending every penny they earn and more but others, albeit fewer, live the same lifestyle well below their means) of class. But I don’t think US _socio_-economic class can just be measured economically. I don’t either- I think it’s more about lifestyle and outlook than anything else, but how do you measure those? But I think post-war America was kind of a historical anomaly, in that we had a very large middle class composed of factory workers and other wage-earners (as opposed to salaried people). I get the impression this isn’t the normal way- typically, you’ve had a lot of working class / peasantry without much money at all, a relatively small middle class of skilled tradesmen, merchants, shopkeepers, etc… and then the “rich” who basically control stuff in one way or another. Maybe the pendulum is swinging back toward the historical norm in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/27 "2016-06-14T17:23:04Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t either- I think it’s more about lifestyle and outlook than anything else, but how do you measure those? > > But I think post-war America was kind of a historical anomaly, in that we had a very large middle class composed of factory workers and other wage-earners (as opposed to salaried people). I get the impression this isn’t the normal way- typically, you’ve had a lot of working class / peasantry without much money at all, a relatively small middle class of skilled tradesmen, merchants, shopkeepers, etc… and then the “rich” who basically control stuff in one way or another. Eventually you could have something like that depending how hereditary the roles become. But as of now IMO ‘the rich’ v ‘the upper middle class’ is a political construct. ‘The rich’ are just people who are a target from whom to raise more tax money, or alternatively investors/creators of wealth to unleash with less tax and regulation, etc, depending on your politics. But IME there’s no real social class line between rich and upper middle class people in the US as a rule, as of now. There isn’t a shining bright dividing line between upper middle class and middle/working class people below that either, but a fairly narrow zone of transition, and once you’re past it you know it. The way people talk, the entertainment and sports they watch, in education it would more of a line between name brand college or not, rather than anyone completing college, etc. Again I think the Charles Murray ‘are you in the bubble’ quiz captures it to a meaningful degree, with limits, see link. Then there’s an underclass. Those are the three current American social classes for whose existence you can make a real argument, just IMHO: rich/upper middle, middle/working below upper, and under. Other than that I think one is just dividing people conveniently by easy measures like income, and maybe it’s useful for some purposes, but doesn’t represent really distinct social classes. In the future it could change, of course. > **[Do you live in a bubble? A quiz](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2)** > > There's a new upper class that's completely disconnected from the average American and American culture at large, says Charles Murray. Take this 25-question quiz to find out just how thick your bubble is. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/28 "2016-06-15T01:43:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No. China has plenty of folks in the working class working in American owned factories. It should be noted that several major investors of U.S. companies are foreigners, including members of the financial elite in China. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/29 "2016-06-15T01:50:15Z")
Given the definition here: > **[Working class](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class)** > > The working class (or labouring class) comprises those engaged in manual-labour occupations or industrial work, who are remunerated via waged or salaried contracts. Working-class occupations (see also "Designation of workers by collar colour") include blue-collar jobs, and most pink-collar jobs. Members of the working class rely exclusively upon earnings from wage labour; thus, according to more inclusive definitions, the category can include almost all of the working population of industri As... one can argue that almost everyone whose income comes primarily from wages (and that means most people worldwide) is part of the working class. However, if wage levels are high enough, then several may be members of the middle class. That’s probably where the shift to post-industrialization comes in. Meanwhile, the middle class is growing worldwide, especially in BRICS and emerging markets: > **[The rise of the global middle class](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22956470)** > > Hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty but can the middle class continue to grow? The catch is that the cost of moving towards post-industrialization requires increasing amounts of energy and material resources (as more prosperity means more desire for all sorts of consumer goods, etc.), and the biosphere does not allow for that: > **[Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we're nearing collapse | Cathy...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse)** > > Graham Turner and Cathy Alexander: Four decades after the book was published, Limit to Growth’s forecasts have been vindicated by new Australian research. Expect the early stages of global collapse to start appearing soon ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/30 "2016-06-23T11:59:40Z")
The face of the working class seems to be a lot different than it was 30 or 40 years ago. I grew up in a Rust Belt city, and at least in the 1970s and 1980s, working class culture generally meant lower middle class Catholic/European-American culture - workingman’s bars, volunteer fire departments, cottages, big American barge-like cars, garage for screens in the summer, above-ground pools, and large tool collections. Today, even in the Northeast, workimg-class culture seems more like rural Southern culture - pickup trucks, country music, hunting/fishing, and powersports. Carhartt is giving way to camo. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/31 "2016-06-23T15:26:59Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > The face of the working class seems to be a lot different than it was 30 or 40 years ago. I grew up in a Rust Belt city, and at least in the 1970s and 1980s, working class culture generally meant lower middle class Catholic/European-American culture - workingman’s bars, volunteer fire departments, cottages, big American barge-like cars, garage for screens in the summer, above-ground pools, and large tool collections. Today, even in the Northeast, workimg-class culture seems more like rural Southern culture - pickup trucks, country music, hunting/fishing, and powersports. Carhartt is giving way to camo. I definitely agree on that, my perception and experience. Southern working class culture has become more nationalized, Northern Catholic/ethnic working class culture I knew as a kid kind of faded away. A lot of my extended family was still ‘ethnic’ Brooklyn/Queens Irish working class. That doesn’t really exist now, and among their arch rivals (kidding, sort of) NY Italian working class (the ‘NY accent’ as popularized is _their_ accent) it’s not as distinct anymore either. And in pop culture ‘white working class’ is either Southerners or other people acting like they’re Southerners, at least compared to what I knew. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/32 "2016-06-23T15:34:49Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Where do you put retail workers? It would depend on their role. A cashier is going to be in a different class than a POS installer, or a pharmacist, or a manager. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/33 "2016-06-23T21:14:27Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I definitely agree on that, my perception and experience. Southern working class culture has become more nationalized, Northern Catholic/ethnic working class culture I knew as a kid kind of faded away. A lot of my extended family was still ‘ethnic’ Brooklyn/Queens Irish working class. That doesn’t really exist now, and among their arch rivals (kidding, sort of) NY Italian working class (the ‘NY accent’ as popularized is _their_ accent) it’s not as distinct anymore either. And in pop culture ‘white working class’ is either Southerners or other people acting like they’re Southerners, at least compared to what I knew. Will it seems like the working class has at least disappeared in the Rust Belt. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057/34 "2016-06-30T03:19:26Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Where do you put retail workers? Will for hourly retail workers, they could fall into the working class depending on their hourly wage. Some retailers do pay well, even for the hourly workers. Some pay like shit. Take Walmart for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-working-class-disappearing/757057.md?page=1)