# Is There a Anecdote for Anthrax? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 5, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581 "2001-10-05T14:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![epeepunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f19dbf/32.png) [@epeepunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epeepunk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/21 "2001-10-05T17:48:02Z")
According to the latest issue of Time Magazine: > [@](#): > > Cipro is the only drug approved for biological attacks–specifically for inhaled anthrax–although it’s never been directly tested in humans. Doxycycline and penicillin may help as well, if given over a long term. ---
**Author:** ![Thrasybulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Thrasybulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thrasybulus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/22 "2001-10-05T17:53:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > **Anthrax has a _90%_ mortality rate.** Actually, Inhaled Anthrax (sometimes referred to as Pulmonary Anthrax) has a 90% mortality rate. It is extremely rare. Cutaneous (about 95% of all cases are cutaneous anthrax) and Intestinal Anthrax have much lower mortality rates (about 20% of untreated cases and about 35%, respectively). ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/23 "2001-10-05T18:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mersavets \* > \*\ ***Wildest Bill** is one of the few people who I know of only through the internet that I would really like to meet. There’s not much else I can say really.t \*\* You don’t want to hit me or anything do ya? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![k.os](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@k.os](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k.os)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/24 "2001-10-05T18:13:01Z")
[This](http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/bw/agent.htm#b02) will answer most questions on Anthrax as a Biological Weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Mersavets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aca169/32.png) [@Mersavets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mersavets)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/25 "2001-10-06T00:38:37Z")
No, of course not. I’d need a better reason to hit someone than any you could provide via a message board. I just think it is a scream when some of the more pretentious people here correct you on your ‘errors’. I could swear some people believe irony is a n adjective describing things that tend to rust. Keep up the good work Bill, you have at least one fan (and I suspect many more quiet ones as well) :)( ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/26 "2001-10-06T00:52:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Yes, I believe it’s Air Supply \*\* Nope, 10CCs ROTFLMAO ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/27 "2001-10-06T03:13:10Z")
BTW, the anthrax victim in FL died today: [Anthrax victim dies](http://news.excite.com/news/r/011005/18/news-attack-anthrax-dc) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/28 "2001-10-06T03:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mjollnir \* > \*\*I have a friend from Michigan, who had once lived in the same city where they make the anthrax vaccine. > \*\* That would be Lansing Michigan. Name of company BioPort, was developed by the State of Michigan IIRC, prior to our Gov selling the division to BioPort who contracted w/the Defense Dept to manufacture it for the armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/29 "2001-10-06T03:33:54Z")
Ciprofloxacin (aka Cipro) is the drug of choice. My understanding is that the government has about two million doses of it stashed around the country, which should be enough to cover whatever attack we might face. There is an elaborate plan in place to get it where it needs to go. (I was involved with some drills earlier this year.) Pulmonary anthrax, IIRC, is also known as woolsorter’s disease, as the _B. anthracis_ spores are found in wool and the disease used to show up occasionally in people who worked with wool. (I’m guessing that those people wear masks now.) It doesn’t transmit from person to person, which makes it, IMHO, a lousy biological weapon. I think the most likely bioterroristic threat is pneumonic plague–it’s more infectious than anthrax, more virulent than tularemia, and it wouldn’t be that hard for a terrorist to get his hands on, unlike smallpox. Fortunately, it responds well to antibiotics, if you catch it early–which is tough, since the symptoms are fairly nonspecific. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/30 "2001-10-06T03:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, I believe it’s Air Supply Are you familiar with the phrase, _“The cure was worse than the disease?”_ 500 pun bonus points to the person who capitalizes the c. –John ---
**Author:** ![Mersavets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aca169/32.png) [@Mersavets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mersavets)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/31 "2001-10-06T03:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DoctorJ \* > **It doesn’t transmit from person to person, which makes it, IMHO, a lousy biological weapon.** Interesting. I would have thought that would be preferable. I know some of these terrorists are suicida l, but I doubt they want to put their own people at even greater risk than they already do. If you use an agent that doesn’t spread from person to person, then you have a greater degree of control over who your victims are.r ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/32 "2001-10-06T04:52:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mersavets \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by DoctorJ \* > > **It doesn’t transmit from person to person, which makes it, IMHO, a lousy biological weapon.** > > Interesting. I would have thought that would be preferable. I know some of these terrorists are suicida l, but I doubt they want to put their own people at even greater risk than they already do. If you use an agent that doesn’t spread from person to person, then you have a greater degree of control over who your victims are.r \*\* Yes, but it greatly limits your potential victims. With anthrax, you can only kill people you directly infect. With something more communicable, you only need to infect a few people, then they infect more, who in turn infect more, and more, and more, until you (theoretcially) have a huge epidemic. ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/33 "2001-10-06T05:30:13Z")
> [@](#): > > It doesn’t transmit from person to person, which makes it, IMHO, a lousy biological weapon. I’ve been wondering myself why there is such a big to-do about anthrax. I think it is getting so much attention simply because it has been tried (unsuccessfully) on several occasions. Either bin Laden’s groups doesn’t have anyone with the ‘smarts’ to use biological weapons, or the major intent was not to damage or destroy the US, but to make a big splash that would, hopefully, ignite WWIII. Heck, they missed their chance to very easily kill a lot of US citizens - there was a recent Ebola outbreak in Africa. Dead easy for a few suicidal volunteers to obtain blood samples, inject themselves, fly to the US, and wait on symptoms to develop. Pick a large crowded area - a major airport, a football game, a concert - especially places where a lot of people will be traveling some distance back home - and have Mr. Terrorist blow himself up, splattering everyone in the vicinity with Ebola-infected body fluids/parts. Voila! Major deadly, highly contagious disease outbreak in the US. Let me scare you a little more: from the CDC site (you will need Adobe Acrobat to access this) [Botulism as a Biological Weapon](http://www.bt.cdc.gov/Agent/Botulism/BotulismConsensus.pdf). > [@](#): > > Botulinum toxin is the most poisonous substance known. A single gram of crystalline toxin, evenly dispersed and inhaled, would kill more than 1 million people, although technical factors would make such dissemination difficult. On page two, read “HISTORY OF CURRENT THREAT” and see if that doesn’t scare the shit out of you. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/34 "2001-10-07T00:33:53Z")
According to a fellow at work, Amtraks is a terrible disease that makes you want to ride trains. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/35 "2001-10-07T00:49:14Z")
That Ebola scenario isn’t that easy to pull off. First of all, you have to find someone who wants to get infected. There aren’t that many cases of Ebola in the world and you have to work hard to pick up the disease (like getting blood on you.) Then you would have to get from someplace like the jungles of Congo to a big metropolitan area without: 1) the people in the area noticing you leaving as they tend to quarantine these areas and 2) getting into the metropolitan area without dying of the disease first. Ebola makes people very sick and they might not even be healthy enough to walk around to kill themselves. Monster fevers tend to make you feel your best, especially when you are hemorrhaging badly to boot. And remember that when you blow yourself up, you create a lot of heat that can kill off a lot of nasty viruses. ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/36 "2001-10-07T06:07:00Z")
My source for most of the following info is here: [CDC report on Ebola outbreak in Uganda](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5005a1.htm) > [@](#): > > That Ebola scenario isn’t that easy to pull off. First of all, you have to find someone who wants to get infected Terrorist suicide bombers/hijackers, remember? 19 of them were willing to die in airplane crashes - 19 Ebola carriers targeting several large cities could cause a lot more deaths than occurred on 9/11, and shut down travel much more effectively and for a longer period of time. While the economic impact would not be as bad, and the initial ‘attack’ would not be as spectacular, the lives lost and demoralizing effect would be tremendous. > [@](#): > > There aren’t that many cases of Ebola in the world Ebola-Sudan (not quite as deadly as Ebola-Zaire) reared it’s ugly head in Uganda in August 2000. The outbreak wasn’t recognized until early October, wasn’t diagnosed as Ebola until mid-October, and wasn’t brought under control until January 2001. As of January 23, 425 cases had been _identified_; the death rate was 53% (Ebola-Zaire is supposed to have a fatality rate of nearly 90%). Opportunity knocked from mid-October (when the outbreak was identified) until January. Oh, and preventative measures were started in October, and it still took 3 months to get it under control. > [@](#): > > you have to work hard to pick up the disease (like getting blood on you.) No, you don’t have to work very hard at all to contract Ebola, once it is in the human population. From the cited CDC report: “Epidemiologic investigations identified the three most important means of transmission as attending funerals of presumptive EHF case-patients where ritual contact with the deceased occurred, and intrafamilial or nosocomial transmission. Fourteen (64%) of 22 health-care workers in Gulu were infected after establishing the isolation wards; these incidenses led to the reinforcement of infection-control measures.” Please notice that health-care workers were infected _after_ the disease had been identified and precautions taken - and the delay in identification and containment occurred in a country where Ebola outbreaks can be _expected_ to occur. Also please note that I am talking about terrorist who _want_ to become infected, hence the mention in my previous post of deliberately obtaining and injecting themselves with a patient’s blood. > [@](#): > > Then you would have to get from someplace like the jungles of Congo to a big metropolitan area without: 1) the people in the area noticing you leaving as they tend to quarantine these areas Point 1: Do you think they actually quarantined the entire country for 3 months? No apparently healthy foreign nationals were allowed to enter or leave during that time? Point 2: We are talking about terrorists with extensive international networks, training in covert operations, false passports/ids, and lots of money, in a part of the world where a little bit of money goes a looong way. Point 3: Uganda is not exactly a ‘developed’ country, and seems to be a trifle . . . ‘unsettled’: [http://travel.state.gov/uganda.html](http://travel.state.gov/uganda.html) . I wouldn’t be suprised if bin Laden’s followers weren’t already quite welcome there. And, gee, who is that on their northern border? Sudan, of course! Isn’t that one of bin Laden’s (former) buddies? > [@](#): > > 1. getting into the metropolitan area without dying of the disease first. Incubation period ranges from 5 to 12 days: [http://www.uct.ac.za/microbiology/ebolasho.html](http://www.uct.ac.za/microbiology/ebolasho.html) before onset of symptoms. In this case, mean time from onset of symptoms to death was 8 days (CDC cite). I don’t think it is impossible, or even improbable, to travel from Uganda to Los Angeles in 5 days, especially if you are utilizing a well-established terrorist network. And you wouldn’t necessarily have to wait until you started getting sick - the virus is going to be pretty widespread in the bloodstream before you start showing symptoms. > [@](#): > > Ebola makes people very sick and they might not even be healthy enough to walk around to kill themselves. Monster fevers tend to make you feel your best, especially when you are hemorrhaging badly to boot. See above about incubation periods. Plus, from the CDC report: “among 62 persons with laboratory-confirmed EHF admitted to Gulu Hospital, symptoms included diarrhea (66%), asthenia (64%), anorexia (61%), headache (63%), nausea and vomiting (60%), abdominal pain (55%), and chest pain (48%). Patients presented for care a mean of 8 days (range: 2–20 days) after symptom onset. Bleeding occurred in 12 (20%) patients and primarily involved the gastrointestinal tract.” > [@](#): > > And remember that when you blow yourself up, you create a lot of heat that can kill off a lot of nasty viruses Well, that would depend on the method you chose, wouldn’t it? A rather crude but effective method that _I_ can think of would involve strapping hand grenades to various parts of your body. I’m sure someone who actually knows something about explosives could come up with a much better idea. ---
**Author:** ![LocalLoop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@LocalLoop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LocalLoop)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/37 "2001-10-07T06:22:00Z")
Another point to the OP… The Soviets (as well as the United States, I suppose) spent a lot of time and money creating multiple strains of extremely potent and durable anthrax samples. I.e. anthrax capable of surviving dispersion via an explosive , as well as being highly resistant to antibiotic treatments (read: Ciprofloxacin). Even better, this site [http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wanth04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html](http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wanth04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html) happily reports that enough anthrax to kill the world’s population several times over sits unguarded on an island in the Aral Sea. With luck, it is no longer potent and/or stable enough to be used. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/38 "2001-10-07T06:48:28Z")
According to the World Health Organization Fact Sheet on Ebola [http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact103.html](http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact103.html) scientists don’t even know where the Ebola virus resides. So, it’s not like there’s someone sitting on a stash of Ebola virus somewhere. So, a terrorist would seemingly have to wait for an outbreak to start, then go to that place, get infected and then put his plan into motion. This seems like an awful lot of work when you could more easily just blow up a building or bridge. Also, while you certainly don’t wish to contract Ebola, the U.S. health care system is much better equipped to stop its spread than the countries where it has occurred before. I’m still more worried about a 1919 flu-type outbreak than any sort of germ warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/39 "2001-10-07T08:17:20Z")
> **[U.S. Department of Defense](https://www.defense.gov/)** > > The Department of Defense is America's largest government agency. With our military tracing its roots back to pre-Revolutionary times, the department has grown and evolved with our nation. (I was studying anthrax recently, and this is one of the most informative of the non-technical websites.) The long and short of it is that there are a lot of ways to get anthrax, and the severity of symptoms differ depending on how you’re infected. The worst is inhalation anthrax, which is 90% fatal. It’s easy for terrorists to spread, because it can be grown in bulk and freeze-dried. Freeze-drying causes the anthrax bacteria to enter a “spore” form which lets them sit dormant until they’re sprayed on you with a crop duster. Infection goes through two phases. In the first, you have no symptoms while the bacteria grow inside your body. In the second, enough bacterial toxins have accumulated in your bloodstream enough to cause symptoms, and nothing can flush out those toxins, so you’re doomed. If you know (or suspect) you’ve been infected, you can take antibiotics to keep the bacterium in check during the first, asymptomatic phase until you can eradicate it from your body with a vaccination. My understanding is that hospitals are currently stockpiling the appropriate antibiotics just in case, so distribution won’t be quite so nightmarish as it could be. Fun fact: Anthrax gets its name from the Latin word from “coal” (hence words like anthracite,) because when Anthrax infects an open wound, it causes a sore which becomes black in the center. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581/40 "2001-10-07T08:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by epeepunk \* > \*\*According to the latest issue of Time Magazine: > > > [@](#): > > > > Cipro is the only drug approved for biological attacks–specifically for inhaled anthrax–although it’s never been directly tested in humans. Doxycycline and penicillin may help as well, if given over a long term. > > \*\* I was a bit bothered by that Time report- it doesn’t jibe with what I’ve read from other sources. -Ben [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-anecdote-for-anthrax/85581.md?page=3)