# Is there a breakdown of how our money has been spent? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 31, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697 "2006-07-31T12:46:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bean\_Counter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@Bean\_Counter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bean_Counter)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/41 "2006-08-03T03:42:32Z")
[QUOTE=wolf\_meister] My only point was that the answer could be put a bit more courteously than “we’re private - we don’t _have_ to tell you anything”. [/QUOTE] Courteously? From Unca Cecil? I think I know where the blow ended up. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/42 "2006-08-03T04:21:53Z")
[QUOTE=wolf\_meister] Good point. However, if one day Fred asked me for some money, I’d like to know _why_ he wanted it and maybe also inquire about his finances. [/QUOTE] That’s interesting, but off-point. Fred wasn’t introduced to this discussion as an analog for the Reader in any way other than to highlight how a private individual or organization may want to keep financial information private. So Fred isn’t offering you a service, nor is he going to ask you for money. He’s just someone you know who doesn’t want to disclose how much money he makes. That’s it – that’s all the point that Fred is here to make. And I think it’s a good one. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/43 "2006-08-03T05:37:02Z")
**Brainiac4** Oh that’s fine with me. You win. Yep you’re right. Boy is my face red. 🆒 That’s certainly why I stated in my previous posting: > [@](#): > > I definitely see why you wouldn’t want the financial details of the subscriptions to be revealed to this crowd. I trust you will take this posting in the humorous tone which I intended. 🙂 Let’s face it, “Dopers” (including me) have an absolute obsession with: • presenting the proper argument (or an attempt thereof) • stating answers to 20 decimal places • posting rebuttals with lots of cites for the facts as well as scans of text going back to Roman times (with the requisite Latin translations). But wait a minute - let’s suppose Fred does offer a service (lawn-mowing for example) and _then_ he decides to … NO - just kidding 😃 As far as I’m concerned, this is my _last_ posting on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/44 "2006-08-03T09:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=jackelope] In some jobs, you’d get fired. In some other jobs, you would NOT get fired. But there is no job in the world in which you would feel compelled to tell your boss how you spend your paycheck. [/QUOTE] I don’t really have a dog in this race, but I’ve been lurking on and off this message board for a while and I think I will probably subscribe. I think a better analogy would be this: You have a job. You are an excellent employee, but you are constantly coming in late and missing work because your car keeps breaking down. Finally you sit down with the boss and tell him that your salary is not enough to buy a new, reliable car. The boss is happy with your work and doesn’t want to fire you for your poor attendance even though he has every right to do so. After lengthy discussion, it is agreed that you will get a raise, in part because the boss likes your work, and in part so that you can get a reliable car. A few months later, you are still coming late to work and missing work. The boss asks how the extra money is being spent. Is this question out of line? Does the boss have any right to know how you spend your pay? Is it appropriate to say to the boss “you have no right to know”? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/45 "2006-08-03T14:35:56Z")
[QUOTE=psychloan] A few months later, you are still coming late to work and missing work. The boss asks how the extra money is being spent. Is this question out of line? Does the boss have any right to know how you spend your pay? Is it appropriate to say to the boss “you have no right to know”? [/QUOTE] Is not accurate. Chicago Reader is boss. You pay us fifteen dollars, we give you message board, and maybe your car don’t get set on fire. What you say? You wanna know where fifteen dollars goes? It fire insurance. Back to the posting mill with you! There wasn’t some happy little roundtable where the posters said ‘Hey guys, this place doesn’t run so good’ and the CR said ‘Okay, well, we need some money to make it run better’. What happened was, they realized we’d mugged them for a hundred and twenty thousand dollars. They were running a charity and probably couldn’t even deduct it. They’re possibly still in the red. From their perspective, it should never have been free, so any silly claims of entitlement based on the fact that it used to be free are void. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/46 "2006-08-03T15:43:59Z")
[QUOTE=psychloan] A few months later, you are still coming late to work and missing work. The boss asks how the extra money is being spent. Is this question out of line? [/QUOTE] Yes. > [@](#): > > Does the boss have any right to know how you spend your pay? No. > [@](#): > > Is it appropriate to say to the boss “you have no right to know”? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/47 "2006-08-03T16:25:02Z")
I think the problem lies in how the PTB keep answering the question about finances. It usually goes like this: Q: Hey the server still sucks, so how is the money we gave for subscription being spent? A: The Chicago Reader is a private company and we don’t have to tell you. I think most people would then like to know why- which is a question that has not been answered until CK’s last post in this thread. Is this question an appropriate one to ask to strangers? No, but probably neither is this [one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=382383) Like that other question, this one certainly does not deserve to brushed away on the notion of common courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/48 "2006-08-03T16:45:13Z")
> [@wolf meister](#): > > However, if one day Fred asked me for some money, I’d like to know why he wanted it Why do I get the feeling that, like history, I’m endlessly repeating myself? The WHY has been clear from day one when Ed [announced the switch to Subscriptions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253315) … to cover expenses related to the operation of the boards. Those expenses include the hard costs like server etc, and the soft costs, like salaries of the Tech God et al. So, the WHY has always been open and clear. The details, like how much is spent for this and how much is spent for that… well, I can only shudder at what this audience would do with such information. “WHAT? You spent $3.24 for a wombat-free zisquizzle? Hell, I could get it for $2.49.” “$2.49?? Phooey, I know a guy who can get them, including the left-handed versions, for $2.29.” Endlessly circling… Ed also made it clear that there was no promise of equipment upgrades. There has been performance improvement, even if it’s not exactly perfect. > [@wolf meister](#): > > My only point was that the answer could be put a bit more courteously than “we’re private - we don’t have to tell you anything”. If you can think of a more courteous way of putting it, **wolf** , we’d be delighted to use that in future. The problem has been that people don’t quite get the courteous responses, but they understand “none of your damn business.” ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/49 "2006-08-03T17:17:33Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] The details, like how much is spent for this and how much is spent for that… well, I can only shudder at what this audience would do with such information. “WHAT? You spent $3.24 for a wombat-free zisquizzle? Hell, I could get it for $2.49.” “$2.49?? Phooey, I know a guy who can get them, including the left-handed versions, for $2.29.” Endlessly circling… [/quote] Would that be so terrible? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/50 "2006-08-03T17:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=psychloan] Would that be so terrible? [/QUOTE] I don’t think I’m exaggerating if I say it could potentially trigger World War III. ---
**Author:** ![MizGrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cdc98d/32.png) [@MizGrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MizGrand)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/51 "2006-08-03T18:30:22Z")
My only cheese with paying is this: I was an original AOL boards user. For some reason, at the time, and for only a little while (3 weeks?) I questioned my need for a subscription. For the stupidity that was hesitation, I’m not, nor can I be, a Charter Member. I should be! I object to the _continued_ two-tiered charge. We should all, once we’ve **re** joined, be able to get the HALF(!) price. Don’t know why I really care – just the brat in me, whining, like my baby boy… ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/52 "2006-08-03T19:08:05Z")
[QUOTE=psychloan] Would that be so terrible? [/QUOTE] In itself, no, but people don’t understand why their wonderful suggestion wasn’t taken up… and then get angry and annoyed because they’re not being listened to. And then they leave in huff, or a minute and a huff. Or they continue to repeat their suggestions, yelling into the silence, getting more and more phrustrated, sooner or later finding some postal employees to slaughter… And, **RSSChen** , I feel your pain. But, there’s that old folk-saying, “He who hesitates is out the extra $7.” ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/53 "2006-08-03T19:12:35Z")
**C K Dexter Haven** As you can see by my previous posting (which I _know_ I said would be my last on this subject - sorry) I was quite willing to be a little less sensitive concerning “where the money goes”. Since you brought me back into this brouhaha (and I’m not upset about that), I will address your question. Why not have this topic (and all future ones) become closed threads with an approprite web page explaining _why_ we don’t discuss this topic - ever? This would free up the mods, the Admins and the Powers That Be to attend to their regular business. Should the subject ever arise, just have a mod close it and post an appropriate link. Just a thought. * * * "WHAT? You spent $3.24 for a wombat-free zisquizzle? Hell, I could get it for $2.49. Yes, but if the people who run this board weren’t so cheap and would spend $3.34, they could get an _enhanced_ version of the wombat-free zisquizzle, a self-enabling logistical firmware that allows multi-channelled heuristic encoding. WHAT? For just 10 cents more, you’d get the fully-configurable web-enabled groupware version. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/54 "2006-08-03T19:31:14Z")
Here’s what bugs me: Ed makes no promises, but does say this: “For now we’ll just say this: If board performance improves, we won’t be surprised.” Now, this whole subscription thing cropped up in response to the increasing sluggishness of the server. Many offers of donations were declined (for the sole purpose of upgrading the server). Subscriptions were finally settled upon by the owners. This, **John Carter** , is I suppose where I got that the “spirit” of the subscription was to upgrade the server. No, it was never stated, but I think it was implied. Now I’m getting the impression the owners had no intention of upgrading and just wanted the income (something may have been done since the board is running a bit faster, but we know not what, and failures are still happening). I feel sort of hoodwinked. I don’t feel victimized, and I’m not crying foul (I’m a big boy, and I read the agreement and paid the money), but I am feeling a bit disillusioned, I guess. And from the impression I’ve gotten from this thread, there is no one at the Reader who has the subscriber’s interests on their radar scope, much less in his heart. The server may start deteriorating again, and the Reader will just smile and keep collecting the dues. If folks jump ship, no biggie to them, since this is all just low-hanging fruit to them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/55 "2006-08-03T21:40:23Z")
[QUOTE=flyboy88] Now, this whole subscription thing cropped up in response to the increasing sluggishness of the server. [/QUOTE] Where in the world did you get this impression? > [@](#): > > This, **John Carter** , is I suppose where I got that the “spirit” of the subscription was to upgrade the server. No, it was never stated, but I think it was implied. I don’t see how you can come to this conclusion, since they was never any explicit expression of a _quid pro quo_ between subscriptions and improved service. To the contrary, TPTB went out of their way to state that there was no guarantee of improved service. Anything to the contrary is an unsupported inference on your part. > [@](#): > > Now I’m getting the impression the owners had no intention of upgrading and just wanted the income … Despite the numerous and repeated statements that it was to cover continuing operating costs, that had heretofore been absorbed by the Reader? I’m getting the impression you are willfully ignoring facts which contradict the basis of your whining. > [@](#): > > I feel sort of hoodwinked. A wholly self-inflicted injury, to be sure. > [@](#): > > If folks jump ship, no biggie to them, since this is all just low-hanging fruit to them in the first place. Through all the tribulations, there has been net growth in the paid membership, so this ominous prediction that the board with wither away and die is idle speculation as well. Though the part about the low hanging fruit is right; and if your whining pushes them over the edge, and the board gets the axe, you can go to sleep at night knowing it was all your fault. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/56 "2006-08-04T02:54:50Z")
**psychloan** , your extended metaphor falls apart right here: [QUOTE=psychloan] After lengthy discussion, it is agreed that you will get a raise, in part because the boss likes your work, **and in part so that you can get a reliable car.** [/QUOTE] Getting a “reliable car” (i.e., upgrading the servers) was never, ever part of the deal. It was never _suggested_ as part of the deal. No one at the Reader ever said for a moment that the switch to paid membership was to upgrade the machinery. The choice was “Members can start paying, or the SDMB can stop existing.” If there was an improvement in board function (which is, obviously, debatable), it was a happy side effect and never a primary reason. Frankly, I don’t _care_ where my subscription fee goes specifically. I have bigger fish to fry than chasing my 2 pennies per day or whatever it is; the board works most of the time (which is more than I can say for my brother-in-law), and when it doesn’t it comes back up pretty soon. If I didn’t think it was worth my money, I would stop paying. Now can we _please_ lock this thread? ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/57 "2006-08-04T10:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=jackelope] **psychloan** , your extended metaphor falls apart right here:Getting a “reliable car” (i.e., upgrading the servers) was never, ever part of the deal. It was never _suggested_ as part of the deal. [/quote] By searching on google, I found the following, which had been posted on another message board: > [@](#): > > On a related topic, we realize that access to the SDMB is painfully slow during much of the day and we’re discussing what to do about it. We’re maxed out on our current server and upgrading it and the communications lines feeding it will entail substantial ongoing expense. Ad sales, never very strong, have tanked not only for us but for everyone. So we’re considering switching to a subscription-based approach, in which you’d pay a monthly or annual fee for posting rights on the SDMB. (Reading the board would still be free.) > > We realize imposing fees will chase off many–perhaps most–of our users but at this point we’re not seeing any other way to make the SD Website a paying proposition. We appreciate past efforts to pass the hat on our behalf but that’s not a long term solution. No decision has been made regarding subscriptions–we’ll let you know when we do. In the meantime, our apologies for the poor service; it’s frustrating for us too. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=69647](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=69647) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/58 "2006-08-04T12:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=psychloan] By searching on google, I found the following, which had been posted on another message board: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=69647](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=69647) [/QUOTE] What’s your point? I see nothing in that statement that ties the adoption of paid subscriptions to getting a new server or improving service. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/59 "2006-08-04T16:09:05Z")
Not to mention that that thread was from May 2001, about three years before the switch to paid subscriptions. I think the closest we’ll get to an accounting is this, from [Ed’s thread announcing the switch](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253315) (in my mind I suddenly hear Bruce Willis saying, “Ed’s thread, baby… Ed’s thread.”): > [@Ed Zotti](#): > > **Why do you have to charge? How much can it cost to run a message board?** > > Plenty. Jerry and his fellow tech geniuses get paid. Little Ed gets paid, believe it or not. Periodic server upgrades, the monthly data line fees, 3-in-1 oil for the hamster wheel - it all adds up. There’s mention of “periodic server upgrades,” but that doesn’t sounds to me like any kind of promise. In that same post, as has previously been quoted in this thread, **Ed** says: > [@Ed Zotti](#): > > **Do subscriptions mean the board will run faster?** > > We make no promises, but we’re hopeful. The board ran reasonably well after our server upgrade in November 2002, when we had 3,500 current members - that is, people who had posted within the last 30 days. Shortly before switching to subscriptions we had 7,000 current members and the board ran slowly - OK, it crawled - during peak times. The practical capacity of the board, i.e., the largest number to whom we can provide decent service, is somewhere between those two figures. Our initial subscription drive attracted 3,800 users, more than we expected, and traffic hasn’t declined noticeably. We’ll see how things shake out. For now we’ll just say this: If board performance improves, we won’t be surprised. And it has improved noticeably. Good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697/60 "2006-08-04T17:33:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] What’s your point? I see nothing in that statement that ties the adoption of paid subscriptions to getting a new server or improving service. [/QUOTE] If you see nothing, it’s because you didn’t read it. The quote clearly mentions performance issues; upgrading the server to address those issues; and the possibility of switching to paid subscriptions to pay for the additional server expense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-breakdown-of-how-our-money-has-been-spent/366697.md?page=4)