# Is there a British equivalent to the American Independence Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 29, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756 "2010-10-29T12:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/41 "2010-10-30T15:39:30Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > In the Commonwealth countries you have (or had) [Dominion Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Day), which is probably as good an analog as you are going to get. Canada calls it “Canada Day” instead of “Dominion Day” now. I’m not sure what’s done now - when I was a kid Canada had fireworks on July 1. Yeah, we do fireworks and barbecues and getting drunk and so forth (though obviously somewhat less in my neck of the woods – anyway we’re usually barbecued out from St. Jean Baptiste the week before, and busy moving on top of it all). In Ottawa they have a huge and very popular fireworks display/concert on Parliament Hill. (The Queen came this year.) They always used to do fireworks back when I lived in Winnipeg, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/42 "2010-10-30T15:50:08Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > In the Commonwealth countries you have (or had) [Dominion Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Day), which is probably as good an analog as you are going to get. Canada calls it “Canada Day” instead of “Dominion Day” now. I’m not sure what’s done now - when I was a kid Canada had fireworks on July 1. I live in a seaside village just below the Canadian border. Many Canadians own property here. The Canadians celebrate [Canada Day](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHMw_67fOk) the same way we celebrate the 4th of July. Fireworks (which are legal and quasi-legal here), alcohol, barbecue (well, grilling), and frolicking in the bay. Between the Canadians and the Americans, it sounds like a war zone up here for several days. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/43 "2010-10-30T23:04:00Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Yes, but Lewes is _crazy_. I love that the Lewes Bonfire Council urges visitors [not to come](http://www.lewesbonfirecouncil.org.uk/). I’d be extremely surprised if it was ever as much as 100,000 people - there simply isn’t the pavement space for anywhere near that number in the small village of Lewes. > Everywhere else, there’s not the slightest bit of anti-Pope sentiment to Guy Fawkes’. Like I said I lived in Lewes for a year, I attended the 2008 bonfire celebrations… don’t know how many it was but every single street was packed with people. Lewes is not THAT small, you can pack a lot of people in 1 square kiliometer or so. https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lewes%2Brailway&sll=50.873091,0.014269&sspn=0.008693,0.022724&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Lewes%2Brailway%2Bstation&ll=50.870626,0.01133&spn=0.008694,0.022724&z=16 The anti-pope aspet is not just in Lewes, other small towns in East Sussex have bonfire societies and burn pope effigies, Lewes just has the biggest one. Here’s the full list: [http://bonfirenight.info/sussexbonfiresociety.php](http://bonfirenight.info/sussexbonfiresociety.php) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/44 "2010-10-31T03:12:26Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > … the protests against the recent Pope’s visit, which were about him and his entourage being utter bastards… How so? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/45 "2010-10-31T10:07:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > How so? Protection of paedophile priests, position on homosexuality, position on condoms in AIDS-ravaged Africa … But mainly the paedophile priests thing. He was a major player in that before he became Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/46 "2010-10-31T10:54:31Z")
To be fair, Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then was one of the principal figures in the investigation of sexual abuse by priests. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/47 "2010-10-31T12:57:46Z")
@Coremelt: yeah, I’m sure it was a lot of people, but 100,000? The population of the town is only [15,988](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes). Obviously, there are lots of visitors, but there’s still a question of space for them to go. OK, so there’s an anti-Pope aspect to a couple of villages’ celebrations near Lewes’ too. I don’t think that proves that there’s widespread ant-Catholicism to Guy Fawkes’ Night, which seems to be what you’re claiming. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > How so? FAR too many reasons to go into on this thread. I’m surprised it’s news to you that many people think Pope Benedict is vile. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/48 "2010-10-31T14:17:52Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > To be fair, Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then was one of the principal figures in the investigation of sexual abuse by priests. Or non-investigation. Or sweeping under the carpet. That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/49 "2010-10-31T14:20:57Z")
Actually, I guess it doesn’t really matter whether the attendees are 30,000 or 100,000 - it’s a lot of people either way; Bonfire Night celebrations tend to be popular, and an unusual one even moreso. It still doesn’t indicate any actual anti-Catholicism even in Lewes. (Note that it’s not only the Pope who gets burnt). ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/50 "2010-10-31T20:56:16Z")
Read the info page here: “Lewes Bonfire Celebrations is about freedom of speech , remembrance and No Popery .” [http://bonfirenight.info/whyattackreligion.php](http://bonfirenight.info/whyattackreligion.php) Anti-Popery is not technically the same as anti-catholic. " In fact, Popery is not a religion at all ; and it is a sad delusion to suppose, that a mere difference of creed is all that exists between Protestants and Papists. Popery is a political conspiracy to subjugate empires, kingdoms, thrones, and states, to one tyrant, “who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. ii. 4). Rev. Joseph Irons, Grove Chapel, Camberwell, London, 5th November 1837. The Lewes night features marches by all the east sussex bonfire societies, not just the one from Lewes and several of them feature “No Popery”, burning signs. Guy Fawkes night in it’s original form with the anti-popery as kept alive in East Sussex and especially Lewes is the direct equivalent of 4th july, because it’s celebrating the UK’s independence from the popes meddling in UK line of succession. Remember in Catholic countries the Pope was more powerful than kings and indeed in many cases choose the king or queen of countries to suit their own political needs. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/51 "2010-10-31T22:31:37Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Read the info page here: > “Lewes Bonfire Celebrations is about freedom of speech , remembrance and No Popery .” > [http://bonfirenight.info/whyattackreligion.php](http://bonfirenight.info/whyattackreligion.php) > Anti-Popery is not technically the same as anti-catholic. > > " In fact, Popery is not a religion at all ; and it is a sad delusion to suppose, that a mere difference of creed is all that exists between Protestants and Papists. Popery is a political conspiracy to subjugate empires, kingdoms, thrones, and states, to one tyrant, “who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. ii. 4). > Rev. Joseph Irons, Grove Chapel, Camberwell, London, 5th November 1837. > > The Lewes night features marches by all the east sussex bonfire societies, not just the one from Lewes and several of them feature “No Popery”, burning signs. > > Guy Fawkes night in it’s original form with the anti-popery as kept alive in East Sussex and especially Lewes is the direct equivalent of 4th july, because it’s celebrating the UK’s independence from the popes meddling in UK line of succession. > > Remember in Catholic countries the Pope was more powerful than kings and indeed in many cases choose the king or queen of countries to suit their own political needs. That’s interesting information. It doesn’t actually disagree with what I said, so we’re in agreement. Well, except that I think this part: > [@](#): > > Guy Fawkes night in it’s original form with the anti-popery as kept alive in East Sussex and especially Lewes is the direct equivalent of 4th july, because it’s celebrating the UK’s independence from the popes meddling in UK line of succession. is a HUUUGE stretch, the kind to make Elastigirl proud. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/52 "2010-10-31T23:16:05Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > is a HUUUGE stretch, the kind to make Elastigirl proud. Elsewhere on the same website: “Evolving mainly from the Seventeen Martyrs burned at the stake in the Town during the period 1555–1557 and the Gunpowder Plot of 1605, the Lewes and Sussex Bonfire Celebrations are now one of the most well known and talked about traditions in the UK, attracting tens of thousands of visitors each year.” "Why ? . . . Me Thinks it has got something to do with the Harvest Festival , Cinque Ports Confederation and the freedom to roam at night during the close cross English Channel fighting season and the many fire beacons raised in Sussex to warn of advancing enemies , Many of the older societies are either on a hill , coast or surrounded by fertile farmland used to serve Lewes. The wimpy Spanish and French would not normally dare to try and cross the channel in choppy waters from September onwards , So we English lit fires and took to the streets and celebrated our freedom." So yeah it was originally an independence celebration in many ways… its just not remembered that way anymore except in Lewes and some other small towns in Sussex. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/53 "2010-10-31T23:28:56Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > So yeah it was originally an independence celebration in many ways… its just not remembered that way anymore except in Lewes and some other small towns in Sussex. No disagreement from me there. But I think that, in order for it to be anywhere close to being like the 4th of July in the US, it would have to be remembered that way outside of a few villages and it would have to be widely-accepted that the early November 5th celebrations were largely about independence. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/54 "2010-11-01T00:24:29Z")
One village is equal to the whole UK! Remember this, people who actually live in the country! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/55 "2010-11-01T00:41:32Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > One village is equal to the whole UK! Remember this, people who actually live in the country! Makes a change from London being the whole of the country. That’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/56 "2010-11-01T01:21:02Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > One village is equal to the whole UK! Remember this, people who actually live in the country! Surely you’ve been here long enough to know that the American members of the SDMB know far more about foreign countries than the people who actually live there? It’s not exactly a new development for the boards. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/57 "2010-11-01T14:39:55Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > One village is equal to the whole UK! Remember this, people who actually live in the country! the OP’s question is “is there a british equivalent to 4th July”. My answer is “Guy fawkes original intention as an anti popery and anti french and spanish invasion watch force, job well done celebration fits that… gee its shame that only some villages in sussex remember the original intention…” I’m born in Australia but both my parents are British and I lived in London and Lewes from 2005-2008. I think I’m qualified to comment on British culture. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/58 "2010-11-01T15:29:15Z")
Sure. You’re not qualified to disagree with the vast majority of people who’ve always lived there. I was born there and lived there for 14 years, but I’m not qualified either. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/59 "2010-11-01T16:40:56Z")
I feel pretty sure Guy Fawkes night was dropped on top of pre-existing pagan festivities We would do the “Penny for the guy” thing but wouldn’t take our guy up to the bonfire, the bloody Christians would grab them and throw them on the bonfire. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756/60 "2010-11-01T16:48:58Z")
Of course, if you really want to dig, you can always find idiots, like this one commenting in [The Guardian](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/guywalters/100061665/is-it-anti-catholic-to-celebrate-guy-fawkes-night/): > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t be so sure, if I were you [that the passage of time has eradicated anti-Catholic sentiment in the UK]… The Papists haven’t forgotten and that is why you see them like weasels trying to get followers of the CoE to defect… > > The Vatican remains as much of a threat as it always did… If you think the dislike of the Catholic church is strong in the UK, you should also look at how it is discredited and disliked in France, Spain, Portugal etc… > > No, I’m afraid there is still a feeling of celebration at having been saved from a Catholic plot to commit mass murder in the centre of London to try and eradicate the entire ruling class… > > and we think al-Qaeda are bad boys… they should go to the Vatican for training rather than Pakistan… better food and the girls look better… > > Remember remember the 5th of November… I never pegged Ian Paisley as a Guardian reader… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-british-equivalent-to-the-american-independence-day/558756.md?page=4)