I don’t know if you mean exactly what you say there, but the 4th of July is hardly an arbitrary date. It’s true that the resolution of independence was voted on the 2nd, but the Declaration of Independence which explained this decision was adopted on July 4th. Notably John Adams in a letter to his wife dated July 3 said July 2nd would be celebrated in years to come, but we have historically celebrated the 4th instead.
There has been a long debate about whether the document was actually signed on July 4th or in August (even though Adams, Jefferson and Franklin all wrote that they did sign on the 4th though they would have had to sign the officially printed document later again). But regardless, that date does appear in the Declaration itself, and with no instant communication in those days, that’s the date we’ve stuck with.
Bill’s day? We have that in Northern Ireland every July. And yes, we have a bill for Bill’s day, a fairly hefty one once the rubbish is swept up, roads repaved, houses repaired, green areas resown etc etc :rolleyes:
More what I was meaning is the fact that we’ve decided that date is the holiest of holy days in our patriotic calendar as opposed to others. Not that commemorating the Declaration of Independence would have been unimportant, but I’m not sure it would have been the event we celebrate if it had been, say, in January.
Actually, before the Continental Congress approved the Declaration of Independence (most of which was a litany of complaints about His Majesty), many American patriots saw Parliament as the bad guys, and wanted the King to step in to protect the colonists’ rights as “Englishmen.” They didn’t understand, or tactically chose to ignore the fact, that George III was himself guiding British policy, and fully supported a hardnosed policy towards his recalcitrant American subjects.
This is completely wrong. It’s about building big bonfires and letting off many explosives, there’s scarce one in a hundred who even cares about the origin of the thing. It coincides with Diwali this year too, and it’s a Friday, so bring it.
You mean the “August Bank Holiday” wouldn’t count?
[sub]For those who don’t know, it’s a public holiday that has no historic cause or connection, they just thought they needed one.[/sub]
Lewes is where 17 protestants where executed in 1555… and they don’t seem to have forgotten it
There was also anti-pope protests in London just now in September when he visited…
So what I’m saying is, protesting against the pope is perfectly acceptable in the UK, “Political correctness” is not such a big issues as it is in the US.
Well, GreasyJack’s later link was actually to footage of the (in)famous Lewes Bonfire Night. I think most people do file it under “just a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun”, but OTOH they do seem to take it just a leetle bit too seriously down in Lewes.
And just to clear things up (I’m not suggesting that you implied this) - the anti-Pope demos in London recently were not a Protestant vs. Catholic sectarian thing. I can imagine such protests taking place in the US too.
Having lived in Lewes for a year and after reading about the full history of attempted Catholic interference in the UK’s government throughout the centuries I’d argue that the rest of the UK doesn’t take it seriously enough
Maybe not, but speaking of arbitrary dates, Christmas was arbitrarily picked to occur on that date (perhaps because there already was a Roman holiday then celebrating the Winter Solstice and a rebirth of the sun – not that the pun is applicable in Latin) and it seems to have done pretty well for itself.
We probably wouldn’t be having picnics then but if it had been January 4th, say, I would imagine our holiday season would just be a week longer.
If it had been Feb 2nd, then I guess we’d keep waking up and having to repeat the celebration over and over.
Oh yes, I’m quite aware of them. I’d love to see them some time!
Guy Fawkes’ day/night/etc seems quite comparable to 4th of July in terms of it being a grand old time and an important part of the country’s tradition (maybe I came off as disapproving, which was not my intention at all!), but I’m not quite so sure it’s the solemn state occasion we fancy the 4th of July to be over here. I think a large part of it is that it is so sectarian in origin, which is sort of contrary to how modern Britain imagines itself to be. Obviously people still celebrate it, but to me as an outsider it looks almost like a subversive reaction to how the modern state of Britain likes to think of itself. Whereas the 4th is pretty much as conformist and officially-sanctioned as you can get.
I dunno, maybe the 4th will be like Guy Fawkes’ night if we ever get around to developing a modern inclusive culture.
I think you are over-thinking things. In almost all of the country November 5th is nowt more than excuse to set off fireworks and burn things. Anything.
Solemn state occasion? I suppose there are such, but the vast majority of Americans celebrate the 4th of July by 1) having a barbeque, 2) setting off explosives, and 3) attending the local fireworks display or watching the Boston Pops on tv. Nothing solemn about any of these.
Personally, I think Britain should celebrate Mafeking Day, if only because of the jokes/puns you can make with the name (although I suppose Guy Fawkes is good for that, too).
That’s true. I still don’t think it’s anything like an Independence Day, but I can see why it was suggested.
Yes, but Lewes is crazy. I love that the Lewes Bonfire Council urges visitors not to come. I’d be extremely surprised if it was ever as much as 100,000 people - there simply isn’t the pavement space for anywhere near that number in the small village of Lewes.
Everywhere else, there’s not the slightest bit of anti-Pope sentiment to Guy Fawkes’. There’s also no connection to the protests against the recent Pope’s visit, which were about him and his entourage being utter bastards and the visit costing us lots of money, not really anything to do with his religion per se.
That was a real shock when I moved here; after all, I figured Australians would definitely be up for a celebration which involves [del]playing with explosives[/del] letting off rockets and roman candles in celebratory memory of someone who tried to blow up Parliament a long time ago, with bonus points for it being the English Parliament a long time ago.
But no, very few people I spoke to had ever heard of it and many said it sounded like a Very Silly Idea, not least of which was because of the risk of bushfires (which is a valid point, I will concede.)
We used to have Guy Fawkes Night when I was really, really young (I was born in 1976), but I guess it tapered off after the sale of fireworks was prohibited.
I envision a Pratchettesque character named August Bank, who was “famous for being famous”, and whose birthday is “celebrated in the appropriate way,” what is appropriate being up to the individual.
