# Is there a case that Jesus didn't believe in his own divinity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2024, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759 "2024-04-25T21:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/41 "2024-04-26T23:21:20Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > > Also, who were the others who did what he did? John the Baptist? Anyone else? > > Miracles? The disciples did miracles. I don’t think that was considered unique at the time. Stranger\_On\_A\_Train wrote that “Self-proclaimed prophets were a quadrans a dozen in Roman Judea.” That’s what I was thinking about when I questioned Jay\_Z. I agree that miracle claims were then fairly common. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2024, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/42 "2024-04-26T23:58:28Z")
There were lots of miracle workers wandering around Israel at the time. Most didn’t make it into the histories. Outside of the new testament, because only barely made it into the histories. There’s a line that probably refers to him in Josephus, and there are a couple of passages in the Talmud that arguably refer to Jesus, or allude to his followers. That’s it. He wasn’t mentioned by the Romans n any documents that survived. They executed hundreds of messiah-wannabes, and he wasn’t terribly exciting to them at the time. As for other miracle workers in the Jewish tradition, Moses worked a lot of miracles. Elijah did a couple of showy miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/43 "2024-04-27T00:09:06Z")
One verse can provide proof…if the interpretation of that verse is rather loose and all other verses on the subject are ignored. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/44 "2024-04-27T00:21:45Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Anyone else? No, the James passage is accepted by everyone to be 100% authentic- _Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the [sanhedrin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin) of [judges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shophet), and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws,_ > **[Josephus on Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus)** > > The extant manuscripts of the book Antiquities of the Jews, written by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus around AD 93–94, contain two references to Jesus of Nazareth and one reference to John the Baptist. > The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pontius Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum. Nearly all modern scholars reject the authenticity o... Note the offhand mention. Also note that that was how James- the brother of Jesus was supposed to have died. So, that one is solid, the other one. meh. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/45 "2024-04-27T00:56:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, the James passage is accepted by everyone to be 100% authentic Your source says, > Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the second reference to Jesus in the _Antiquities_ , found in [Book 20, Chapter 9](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XX#Chapter_9), which mentions “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James.”[[7]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#cite_note-Feldman557-7) I don’t think “largely acknowledged” is exactly the same thing as “accepted by everyone to be 100% accurate”. But i thought Philly guy was asking about other miracle workers, not about proof that Jesus existed. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/46 "2024-04-27T01:49:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > As for other miracle workers in the Jewish tradition, Moses worked a lot of miracles. Elijah did a couple of showy miracles. You wake up one hungover useless bum who happens to be the kid of the widow you’ve been shacking up with, and next everyone thinks you are a miracle worker and won’t stop hassling you to make it rain. Elijah just wished that coincidental bear attack which shredded the kids mocking his baldness would have occurred years previous; the rumor that he could beckon his god to send animals to attack on command would have come in useful, especially in dealing with that b\*\*\*h Jezebel. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/47 "2024-04-27T01:53:37Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Elijah just wished that coincidental bear attack which shredded the kids mocking his baldness would have occurred years previous [coughs politely] Eli_sha_ [/coughs politely] ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/48 "2024-04-27T02:13:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > [coughs politely] > > Eli_sha_ > > [/coughs politely] Damnit, why can’t these people pick more distinct names! It’s worse than trying to keep track of all the Edwards, Richards, and Johns in the House of Plantagenet. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/49 "2024-04-27T02:43:18Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Damnit, why can’t these people pick more distinct names! I’m sure you’re joking, but their names are all constructed from roots that mean related things; often describing their relationship with God - El - hence all the El\_\_\_ and \_\_\_\_el names. Eta; These two names in particular, though, are only similar when Anglicized. Elisha is alright but Elijah is a terrible rendition of “Eliyahu”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/50 "2024-04-27T03:06:42Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > He was Jewish. It’s a pretty foreign idea to Judaism. That doesn’t prove some Jew didn’t have it; but it’s a lot longer stretch than it looks like to a lot of people raised in the Christian tradition. And it was not a stretch at all for the Roman world, where the Emperor was considered divine, and where demigods were a Roman dime a dozen. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2024, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/51 "2024-04-27T03:30:06Z")
The trick with the bear was cute, but Elijah was the one meditating on top of a hill in the wilderness wearing nothing but a loincloth and incinerating interlopers with giant fucking fireballs like a combination of Gandalf and Tim the Enchanter. Not a dude you’d be likely to forget, assuming you survived the encounter. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2024, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/52 "2024-04-28T04:59:26Z")
I generally accept variants of two source theory. Mark was the first gospel: Matthew and Luke are derived from Mark and a set of Jesus sayings called Q. John was the last gospel to be written, came from a separate tradition, and was written in a later political environment. It is reasonable to set John aside in the context of the OP: we’re discussing plausibility after all. I’m no expert, but I think we can say definitely that Paul believed in Christ’s divinity and there’s no record of disagreement on this issue with Peter’s church. As an example consider Philippians 2:5-11 written from prison near the end of Paul’s life, emphasis added: > Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, **though he was in the form of God** , did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 **And being found in human form** , he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I’m not fully convinced that the all main aspects of the life of the historical Jesus are recoverable. But I think the evidence suggests that Paul considered him divine and this wasn’t considered heretical among Christians at the time. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2024, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/53 "2024-04-28T10:27:11Z")
I think both John and Paul believed that Jesus was divine. I doubt Jesus believed that, and I’m dubious about the other gospels. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/54 "2024-04-29T00:00:42Z")
If Jesus Christ wasn’t divine he was just some loon, right? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/55 "2024-04-29T00:22:47Z")
I don’t think that automatically follows. He might have been a loon; or he might have been a prophet, presuming that there is such a thing; or he might have been a wannabe king; or he might have been a preacher, who had some interesting ideas and some good ideas, some of which were drastically misinterpreted by his followers – probably all of them, by some followers at some times. Or he might have been a combination of two or more or all of those things. At this distance of time, translations, and both accidental and deliberate bendings of stories it’s kind of hard to tell. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/56 "2024-04-29T00:29:06Z")
My idée fixe is that — well, the story is that Joseph wasn’t really on board with the whole thing until he met an angel in a dream, at which point he accepted it; and the audience is supposed to hear that and say, _yup, that makes sense; he had a dream where an angel told him that, and, not being a loon or anything, he of course took it to be, uh, the gospel truth, instead of, y’know, just a dream._ So what follows if _Jesus_ had a dream like that? Guys back then did, or so I’ve heard, and then they — reacted accordingly? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/57 "2024-04-29T00:46:52Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t think that automatically follows. He might have been a loon; or he might have been a prophet, presuming that there is such a thing; or he might have been a wannabe king; or he might have been a preacher, who had some interesting ideas and some good ideas, some of which were drastically misinterpreted by his followers – probably all of them, by some followers at some times. In this context, a prophet is someone who speaks the will of God so I think that at least touches on divinity. Jesus wasn’t just some dude with some cool ideas about loving your neighbor and being a good person. He specifically said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If there’s no divinity there then that’s just loony person crazy talk. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > At this distance of time, translations, and both accidental and deliberate bendings of stories it’s kind of hard to tell. I get where you’re coming from, but if that’s the position you want to take then what’s the point of even participating in the conversation? Not much grounds for a debate, no? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/58 "2024-04-29T01:19:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > He specifically said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If there’s no divinity there then that’s just loony person crazy talk. That’s limited to the Gospel of John. Unlike other gospels, John has a number of I Am sayings. From the Jesus Seminar: > This expression was widely used in the Greco-Roman world, and would have been recognized by John’s readers as an established formula in speech attributed to one of the gods. … In virtually every case, the reader is being confronted with the language of the evangelist and not the language of Jesus. [The Jesus Seminar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar) is not the final authority on these matters, but it does represent a consensus among a subset of reputable Biblical scholars. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/59 "2024-04-29T01:22:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In this context, a prophet is someone who speaks the will of God so I think that at least touches on divinity. A prophet is a human. Not a god. > [@Odesio](#): > > He specifically said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If there’s no divinity there then that’s just loony person crazy talk. Presuming that it’s an accurate quote. > [@Odesio](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > At this distance of time, translations, and both accidental and deliberate bendings of stories it’s kind of hard to tell. > > I get where you’re coming from, but if that’s the position you want to take then what’s the point of even participating in the conversation? Not much grounds for a debate, no? For one thing, to say that I don’t think ‘divine or loon’ are the only possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759/60 "2024-04-29T01:40:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Presuming that it’s an accurate quote. It isn’t, > **John 14:6** (King James Version) > Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the _life_: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (If that is even accurate of course!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-case-that-jesus-didnt-believe-in-his-own-divinity/1000759.md?page=4)