# Is there a compelling interest for race-based diversity in sports? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791 "2015-11-06T11:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/41 "2015-11-08T05:39:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Also, one needs to keep in mind when talking about AA, that it means that a more qualified candidate will be told “no” just because of his or her race. Uh, no. First, AA encompasses more than just disparate testing standards. Most of AA programs are things like outreach programs and scholarships which have little to do with “qualification” differences. Second, the people who are generally doing the admissions are those who determine who is qualified. The idea that up can decide what makes someone more or less qualified based on criteria more limited than what is used is presumptuous and baseless. Third, AA has largely benefited women, not minorities, so your assumption that race must be at play is false. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/42 "2015-11-08T08:36:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It kinda does. If other teams’ criteria is getting the best players and yours is something other than that, then you’re not likely to be very competitive. Since competitiveness isn’t the desired outcome, this is irrelevant. Who cares what the other teams prize? In a lot of sports, other teams’ strategy includes doping. Should we therefore dope, just to stay competitive? > [@](#): > > Also, one needs to keep in mind when talking about AA, that it means that a more qualified candidate will be told “no” just because of his or her race. Mostly not, in the AA systems I know of. Certainly not in the South African system. And of course, what counts as “qualified” is up in the air. This is why recruitment is a human interaction space, not a series of checklists. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/43 "2015-11-08T12:40:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Affirmative action isn’t meant to correct for any inborn deficiencies, it’s meant to correct and balance for discrimination and bias in society. I see no evidence that, at this time, any races are discriminated against in sports in the US, so I see no reason for affirmative action to apply to sports. I’m open to the possibility, since it certainly was different in the past, but without any such evidence I wouldn’t support it. In academics, the standard of discrimination and bias is not applied, because it’s essentially an impossible standard. For institutions that want the best applicants, race is a criterion considered independently of other variables (see U Texas and Harvard’s arguments in Fisher). A wealthy or otherwise privileged black student has their racial self-identification considered independent of whether or not their personal history reflects discrimination or bias that lowered their ability to perform academically. In sports, there has been a long history of discrimination and bias against blacks. When blacks were admitted to sports, it was reluctantly. One suspects de facto discrimination and bias remained (along with a marked opportunity disadvantage) but nevertheless the resulting diversity outcome for the major professional sports shifted markedly out of sync with the proportion of self-identified groups in the general population. Generally, pro-diversity arguments for academia are separated from anti-discrimination arguments because universities want the freedom to choose the best candidates. Were discrimination and bias the drivers, black students most likely to meet those tests would derive from lower socioeconomic tiers and those are not the best black (or white, or asian) students. (This is why U Texas wants not to have to get all of its black student body using a 10% rule, but instead wants race-alone–and this is also true of selective Universities such as Harvard.) To return to sports then, if diversity is an independent good in academia, is it also an independent good in sports? As the academic world arguments for selection criteria have shifted from opportunity to diversity, I think a double standard for diversity (we need it in academics but not in sports) might damage the case for diversity in academics. I’m not sure if that’s a compelling reason, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/44 "2015-11-08T12:49:16Z")
Originally Posted by \*\*Chief Pedant \*\*: _Yes; sports is a route to an opportunity for higher education as is academic performance (and perhaps more, in terms of full rides without means-testing for the brightest stars?) but I nevertheless hold that we should leave sports a pure meritocracy and ignore race-based (or opportunity-based, for that matter) diversity._ > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why do you hold that view? You never tell us. I should have clarified that I meant “professional” sports in the OP–i.e., sports as a mechanism to earn a living. I guess I want to leave it a meritocracy in part for selfish reasons. I want the best of the best in those roles, even (especially?) if the role is to entertain me. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/45 "2015-11-08T12:55:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > - Professional and Olympic sports teams, and all the training structures that directly feed into them, should be rigorously, not to say fanatically, achievement-focused. Diversity issues should be completely irrelevant at that level. I’m pretty sure I heartily agree, but I am trying to defend my position that there is no compelling reason for diversity in sports–only in academia, which I hold should be exempted from being rigorously and fanatically achievement-focused. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/46 "2015-11-08T13:23:08Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > In academics, the standard of discrimination and bias is not applied, because it’s essentially an impossible standard. For institutions that want the best applicants, race is a criterion considered independently of other variables (see U Texas and Harvard’s arguments in Fisher). A wealthy or otherwise privileged black student has their racial self-identification considered independent of whether or not their personal history reflects discrimination or bias that lowered their ability to perform academically. > > In sports, there has been a long history of discrimination and bias against blacks. When blacks were admitted to sports, it was reluctantly. One suspects de facto discrimination and bias remained (along with a marked opportunity disadvantage) but nevertheless the resulting diversity outcome for the major professional sports shifted markedly out of sync with the proportion of self-identified groups in the general population. > > Generally, pro-diversity arguments for academia are separated from anti-discrimination arguments because universities want the freedom to choose the best candidates. Were discrimination and bias the drivers, black students most likely to meet those tests would derive from lower socioeconomic tiers and those are not the best black (or white, or asian) students. (This is why U Texas wants not to have to get all of its black student body using a 10% rule, but instead wants race-alone–and this is also true of selective Universities such as Harvard.) > > To return to sports then, if diversity is an independent good in academia, is it also an independent good in sports? > > As the academic world arguments for selection criteria have shifted from opportunity to diversity, I think a double standard for diversity (we need it in academics but not in sports) might damage the case for diversity in academics. I’m not sure if that’s a compelling reason, though. While I think diversity is an “independent good” for pretty much everything, I don’t think it’s so important that it should be legally enforced in private businesses like sports leagues. I only support affirmative action for the purpose of balancing for discrimination and ensuring equal opportunity, so unless there is evidence of this still occurring in sports then I don’t support it for sports. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/47 "2015-11-08T13:38:47Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I’m pretty sure I heartily agree, but I am trying to defend my position that there is no compelling reason for diversity in sports–only in academia, which I hold should be exempted from being rigorously and fanatically achievement-focused. Well, I can think of a few arguments, most of which have already been adduced here in one form or another: 1. **Little Nemo** ’s _“it’s just a game”_ argument. Professional sports are nothing but popular entertainment, so the loss to society if some potentially talented participants are not getting a chance to achieve their full potential isn’t that great. 2. **iiandyiiii** ’s _“the purpose of diversity promotion is to counter discrimination”_ argument. In the US, white people are not victims of significant racial discrimination in sports or anywhere else, so the fact that they’re underrepresented in some sports is not a justification for affirmative action. 3. **Fiveyearlurker** ’s _“intractable physical disadvantages”_ argument. Whatever we may happen to think about the persuasiveness of psychology studies purporting to show some evidence for differences in average _intellectual_ characteristics between different populations, nobody disagrees that there are various significant and well-established differences in average _physical_ characteristics between different populations. Some populations are on average significantly taller than others, for instance. In any sport where height gives players an advantage, a racial group that overlaps significantly more with the taller population is going to have more of that advantage than a racial group that overlaps significantly more with the shorter population. There’s really no way you can increase diversity between the two groups in that sport without either sacrificing competitiveness or fundamentally altering the nature of the sport. (Similarly, there’s no way to make most professional sports fully gender-inclusive, given the intractable average physical differences in size, strength, speed, etc., between men and women.) 1. The _“tiny elite minority doesn’t really matter, diversity-wise”_ argument. For example, in the US there are about 20 million people attending college. Maybe one in a thousand of those, AFAIK, gets elected to the Phi Beta Kappa honor society. AFAICT (I’m not a PBK member myself so I have no inside dope), the admission criteria deal solely with the types of subject studied, “good moral character”, and academic performance as determined by grades. Diversity issues aren’t a factor. And given that PBK is supposed to be an honor society admitting only a tiny elite minority of college students, it doesn’t really affect levels of opportunity for minority students as a group. It’s much more important to promote diversity at the stages where opportunity is crucial for large numbers of people than to try to figure out how to directly tweak our minute populations of Nobel laureates/NFL players/Oscar winners/Royal Academicians/Man Booker prizewinners/etc. etc. etc. to make those tiny groups more racially diverse. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/48 "2015-11-08T17:37:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Since competitiveness isn’t the desired outcome, this is irrelevant. Who cares what the other teams prize? > > In a lot of sports, other teams’ strategy includes doping. Should we therefore dope, just to stay competitive? > Mostly not, in the AA systems I know of. Certainly not in the South African system. > > And of course, what counts as “qualified” is up in the air. This is why recruitment is a human interaction space, not a series of checklists. Not the desired outcome according to whom? You? Your desire does not trump anyone else’s. And I don’t know a single person who wants sub-par athletes competing for their nation or in professional or any other competitive league in order to fill some arbitrary quota. This is what intramural, rec leagues, etc are for. If you want someone that isn’t the best in the position you gotta be the coach. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/49 "2015-11-08T17:41:42Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > In academics, the standard of discrimination and bias is not applied, because it’s essentially an impossible standard. For institutions that want the best applicants, race is a criterion considered independently of other variables (see U Texas and Harvard’s arguments in Fisher). A wealthy or otherwise privileged black student has their racial self-identification considered independent of whether or not their personal history reflects discrimination or bias that lowered their ability to perform academically. > > In sports, there has been a long history of discrimination and bias against blacks. When blacks were admitted to sports, it was reluctantly. One suspects de facto discrimination and bias remained (along with a marked opportunity disadvantage) but nevertheless the resulting diversity outcome for the major professional sports shifted markedly out of sync with the proportion of self-identified groups in the general population. > > Generally, pro-diversity arguments for academia are separated from anti-discrimination arguments because universities want the freedom to choose the best candidates. Were discrimination and bias the drivers, black students most likely to meet those tests would derive from lower socioeconomic tiers and those are not the best black (or white, or asian) students. (This is why U Texas wants not to have to get all of its black student body using a 10% rule, but instead wants race-alone–and this is also true of selective Universities such as Harvard.) And one reason why sport was integrated in America was, even with institutional bias against blacks, once blacks started competing it was evident how good the black athlete is. Even with their so-called institutional disadvantages black athletes started to dominate far outside their proportional numbers not just certain positions in sport but also entire sports. That would be a unique debate as to why. > [@](#): > > To return to sports then, if diversity is an independent good in academia, is it also an independent good in sports? > > As the academic world arguments for selection criteria have shifted from opportunity to diversity, I think a double standard for diversity (we need it in academics but not in sports) might damage the case for diversity in academics. I’m not sure if that’s a compelling reason, though. It’s not good in academics or sport. Diversity for diversity sake is just the unfair rewarding of poor performance or at best mediocrity. Implementing such policy is also racist. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/50 "2015-11-09T17:27:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Personally I don’t think it is a problem that needs a direct solution by way of quotas or AA. Merit is everything. Then your problem is you think that minorities and women are not smart and/or capable enough to lead. Only white men are good enough eh? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/51 "2015-11-09T17:37:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I nevertheless hold that we should leave sports a pure meritocracy and ignore race-based (or opportunity-based, for that matter) diversity. Then the question is why you think academics, or anything else, shouldn’t also be a meritocracy too. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/52 "2015-11-09T17:43:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 1. **Fiveyearlurker** ’s _“intractable physical disadvantages”_ argument. Whatever we may happen to think about the persuasiveness of psychology studies purporting to show some evidence for differences in average _intellectual_ characteristics between different populations, nobody disagrees that there are various significant and well-established differences in average _physical_ characteristics between different populations. In short, where nature has driven divergence for outcome, diversity should not be an applicable standard? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/53 "2015-11-09T20:52:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not the desired outcome according to whom? You? My national government as the elected representatives of societal will and agents of social change, apparently. \>50% of our citizens support quotas, and the % is higher amongst Blacks. Me, I could not give a toss for that. I already said I don’t support an outright quota system, just development efforts. But as for not viewing competitiveness as the only criterion to judge sport by, I’m right there with the government. I was always taught that in the Ancient Olympics, it wasn’t always the fastest runner who was judged the winner of the race. That’s sports, to me - aesthetics in human form. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/54 "2015-11-10T00:02:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I was always taught that in the Ancient Olympics, it wasn’t always the fastest runner who was judged the winner of the race. That’s sports, to me - aesthetics in human form. What about the segregation of sports by sex then? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/55 "2015-11-10T00:55:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I was always taught that in the Ancient Olympics, it wasn’t always the fastest runner who was judged the winner of the race. Do you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/56 "2015-11-10T05:13:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What about the segregation of sports by sex then? What about it? Sports are segregated now, too. I’m in favour of that not being the case, too. [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] Do you have a cite for that? [/QUOTE] Not for the kids’ books or teachers who told me it, no, but I clearly [didn’t](https://books.google.co.za/books?id=3ZIuRpq56nYC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=greek+the+fastest+runner+not+always+winner&source=bl&ots=iq2RhK7Ejk&sig=e-UeMerDlalQytTXnDvB4UHxpbA&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=greek%20the%20fastest%20runner%20not%20always%20winner&f=false)imagine the idea ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/57 "2015-11-10T06:06:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You mean like a white person quota for the NBA? No. I like the idea of 0 quotas based on sex, race, ethnicity, or sky fairy worshipped. Only preferential treatment I advocate is based strictly on economic class and applied strictly to academics. Well actually I’ve heard somewhere that an NBA coach had the idea that more white players might mean more white fans. Back to the OP, always follow the money. While not for the sake of diversity, an organization might want to allow a certain ethnic or racial group time on the field if that person could mean their associated group buying tickets. For example did the inclusion of Chinese basketball player Yao Ming mean more Asian Americans buying Houston Rockets tickets? I know Monster Trucks wanted to get away from just being seen as a white male thing and have been pushing for more African American and women drivers. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/58 "2015-11-10T14:25:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What about it? Sports are segregated now, too. **I’m in favour of that not being the case, too.** So you want to abolish sex segregation in sports, but you think that’s just a side issues? That’s huge! I commend you for your consistency, but you make it sound easy or non-controversial, as if the rest of the community of meritocracy supporters would easily go along with you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/59 "2015-11-10T16:02:43Z")
I didn’t understand the debate as asking what I thought was _possible_, just what I thought was right/desireable. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791/60 "2015-11-10T16:02:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Then your problem is you think that minorities and women are not smart and/or capable enough to lead. Only white men are good enough eh? what a particularly ill-informed and ignorant response Let me see if I can make it any clearer for you. I believe that every population, gender and culture/race has within it exactly the same potential to produce geniuses, leaders, visionaries, artists etc. etc. I just don’t think that you properly solve the current imbalance by using quotas. Had you read back to my previous posts you’d have seen me say… > [@](#): > > Money and effort should go into ensuring equality of opportunity for all and trying to raise the bar for underachieving or under-represented cultures and communities, regardless of skin colour. By doing that you widen the talent pool and you will slowly begin to see greater numbers come from those communities if the raw talent is there. > Couple that with rigorous enforcement of strict anti-discrimination laws and things will change. Slowly perhaps, but more completely, acceptably and organically that simplistic AA or quotas can achieve [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-compelling-interest-for-race-based-diversity-in-sports/736791.md?page=4)