# Is there a deep state or cabal \[spelling corrected\] that is controlling the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336 "2021-03-21T02:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/81 "2021-03-24T09:58:51Z")
Yes but it was Clinton who started the offshoring of factories to China. Also keep in mind just before the pandemic unemployment was at 4% this is very impressive. Almost full employment like in the 50s and 60s It has not been this low the unemployment in the US just before the pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/82 "2021-03-24T10:42:25Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Yes but it was Clinton who started the offshoring of factories to China. > > Also keep in mind just before the pandemic unemployment was at 4% this is very impressive. Almost full employment like in the 50s and 60s > > It has not been this low the unemployment in the US just before the pandemic Interesting. Do you think a “deep state” or cabal is controlling the government? ---
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/83 "2021-03-24T11:36:45Z")
Yes I was asking why the US government allowed monopolies in that thread and so called anti trust laws. And even today allow monopolies and the handling of Covid and other topics people talk about here. Like offshoring jobs to China, middle class gone, huge country debt, giving China money, other countries having better trade deal than the US, the US allowing China to take over other countries like Hong Kong, huge trade debt with no sight of getting better, small and medium businesses being destroyed by the government. Well it was some of the members here talking about interest groups and lobbying, the act of giving money to people in government. What we have today is corporatism the worse of capitalism. Well it seems not many people in the US are talking about this. And I don’t know any videos on youtube talking about this other than some far left progressive liberals now and than talk about this. And lot of the conservatives just spinning conspiracies stuff is the reason the US is in this mess. Like some deep state or illuminati that want to control every thing and destroy the US. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/84 "2021-03-24T12:28:27Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Yes but it was Clinton who started the offshoring of factories to China. By the way, this isn’t true. Offshoring started happening in earnest back in the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/85 "2021-03-24T12:58:52Z")
Offshoring has a long history. One source says that “[i]n the developed world, moving manufacturing jobs out of the country dates to at least the 1960s while moving knowledge service jobs offshore dates to the 1970s and has continued since then.” Other sources describe it as going on for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/86 "2021-03-24T13:51:21Z")
If you’d like to know more about the history of offshoring (which is part of globalization), I suggest reading the books and watching the TED talks by Hans Rosling. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/87 "2021-03-24T14:44:54Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Yes I was asking why the US government allowed monopolies in that thread and so called anti trust laws. You were asking it in _what_ thread? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/88 "2021-03-24T15:27:08Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Well it seems not many people in the US are talking about this. Every progressive magazine is talking about this and has been for decades. Most mainstream publications have done similar articles. It’s all over online publications. The reality is much closer to _everyone_ is talking about this. Please do not get your information from YouTube videos. Never. Literally never. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/89 "2021-03-24T16:27:03Z")
You forgot that they are loyal to the country, no Trump. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/90 "2021-03-24T18:00:01Z")
**Modnote** : This is inappropriate for a GD thread. Please do not repeat it. Clever ways of calling question to another poster’s intelligence is still not allowed. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record._ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/91 "2021-03-24T19:16:54Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Like offshoring jobs to China, middle class gone, huge country debt, giving China money, other countries having better trade deal than the US, the US allowing China to take over other countries like Hong Kong Wow. You should really read some background on stuff like this before making accusations. Hong Kong was never an independent country. Great Britain took it over more or less by force after the Opium Wars. Great Britain gave it back to China by treaty. Now, China is violating the terms of that treaty, but the United States had nothing to do with it. I spent about five hours in the Hong Kong history museum in Hong Kong, and their view of colonialism is a lot different from what I got when I was in high school. And of course good old American capitalists offshored, not Clinton. Better transport and the Internet had a lot more to do with it than politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/92 "2021-03-25T02:47:28Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > …strange satanic worship As opposed to boring mainstream Satanic worship? > [@Jillwood77](#): > > …rich people drinking blood and running around nude by the tree and doing sadistic rituals I may regret asking, but what kind of tree? On a related matter, I was overjoyed today to see that my mandrake seeds have begun sprouting out in the coldframe. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/d8/5a/e1d85a23a8d512f37626815cd265cfc1.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/d8/5a/e1d85a23a8d512f37626815cd265cfc1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/93 "2021-03-25T08:23:31Z")
There is no “deep state” but the US political system is among the most broken in the world, certainly the developed world. That’s thanks largely to extremely expensive elections plus bribery being defined as free speech which collectively mean most politicians are deeply in hock to their corporate masters. I want to pick up on a couple of specific things from the OP: > [@Jillwood77](#): > > Some say the US politicians have no morality or are atheists and no longer go to church. This kind of statement seems to assume that if politicians went to church more, they’d “sin” less, but that’s not supported by evidence. Most politicians (frankly, on the right in particular) hold hypocritical positions even if they didn’t profess to be godly, so what’s one more? Plus evangelical Christianity has this whole “we’re all sinners” thing that means people can do whatever they like, apologize to god (instead of anyone actually affected), and move on to the next sin. > [@Jillwood77](#): > > sending billions of jobs over to China, making huge trade debt to other countries that your grandkids will NEVER pay off not to say the country debt, making lots and lots of money for China, allowing China to take over other countries, This rant is the typical misframing of the economic problems in the US. The US is not the only country outsourcing jobs to cheaper countries; most developed countries do. Heck, _China_ outsources a lot of work to cheaper countries like Vietnam. That may involve terrible working conditions and I would not defend that side of it, but imagining that we need to artificially put in barriers to international labor is the wrong approach, and would serve only to provide more impetus to developing automation. What countries like the US should be doing is making sure that companies cannot dodge taxes this way, and that they can only invest where working conditions are not too exploitative and pollution etc is at least close to Western standards. On the trade debt: A trade deficit is what we’d expect a wealthy country to have. It could actually be considered an indicator of success. It’s nothing like “owing” money as Trump would have it. I agree with the second half of the paragraph though; the US government is far too friendly to big business, allowing them to dodge taxes and merge into virtual monopolies at will. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/94 "2021-03-25T08:33:22Z")
Actually I want to add, that on the power of corporations thing, this is not solely a US problem by any means. Multinationals can play geopolitics like a fiddle, registering their company in a tax haven, doing much of their labor-intensive work somewhere without worker welfare laws (and often subcontracted out to avoid any blame), locating their fancy offices wherever provides them tax relief for doing so, and going to court in whatever country’s ;laws will let them bully governments and small businesses the easiest. US politicians are easier to buy off that those in other countries, but the problem is much bigger than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/95 "2021-03-25T10:47:10Z")
I have some thoughts on this. The “Deep State” theory is merely the latest manifestation of a longstanding freefloating (mostly) right-wing delusional paranoia and anxiety inherent in American culture. For a few generations it was largely obsessed with the Soviet Union and its sinister machinations (“Reds under the bed” etc). Once the Soviet Union collapsed and was no longer seen as a threat during the Bush St administration, this same paranoia and anxiety attached itself to a pre-existing but fringe theory - the “New World Order” (complete with black helicopters and re-education camps). This became the new obsession, and throughout four administrations we heard all about the “shadow governments” planning malign conspiracies against decent, hardworking Americans, with 9/11 as the pinnacle of proof that the government was engaged in complex evil schemes. And then came Donald. The problem was that Trump was seen not as one of the sinister elite but as a champion of those decent, hardworking Americans, and therefore couldn’t be a part of the New World Order; indeed, he was a champion against that cabal, draining the swamp etc etc. And so a new pre-existing fringe theory came to the fore: the “Deep State”. No longer were the leaders working against the people - now the Trump administration was fighting for all Americans, but a dark collective of civil servants, media sources, ~~pizza restaurants~~ and George Soros were conspiring to foil the efforts of the Divine Donald and his band of doughty patriots. And here we are. It’s still the same freefloating (mostly) right-wing delusional paranoia and anxiety that has existing in America for a long, long time, but it’s found its home in a new place for the time being, heavily reinforced by QAnon and right-wing media sources only too happy to encourage that delusion for their own nefarious purposes. And if and when Donald goes away, it will find another home somewhere else, probably even more ludicrous and unrealistic. The crazies, ye shall always have with you. But they’re not a new phenomenon, and they’re still not remotely correct. ---
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/96 "2021-03-26T07:29:06Z")
I don’t know what more to add to this thread than what I said. I don’t know much about subject to have a opinion or what to say. I just read some different theories on the internet on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/97 "2021-03-26T08:20:48Z")
**This kind of statement seems to assume that if politicians went to church more, they’d “sin” less, but that’s not supported by evidence.** **Most politicians (frankly, on the right in particular) hold hypocritical positions even if they didn’t profess to be godly, so what’s one more? Plus evangelical Christianity has this whole “we’re all sinners” thing that means people can do whatever they like, apologize to god (instead of anyone actually affected), and move on to the next sin.** Well because politicians want voters to vote for them so they tell the people want they want the people to hear. Yes I go to church and yes I believe so on. But out side of the church they are big time sinners. But lot of that is also that a lot of politicians in the south are part of the Baptists. Where Baptist are not as strict as catholic run by the Vatican that keep every preacher on a lash. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/98 "2021-03-26T08:49:49Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Where Baptist are not as strict as catholic run by the Vatican that keep every preacher on a lash. Thanks, I needed a good laugh today ---
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/99 "2021-03-26T09:28:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Please So you take Trump seriously or his preacher that chant and dance and some places even fall down? Not saying Trump does this when he goes to church but there are many places that do those dances and chants. Or some places that fall down or do other strange body movements. Really a lot of this is more spirituality than religion. The hardcore born again or preachers that stand on side walk are more the hard core religious folks that go line by line in the Bible that 90% most religious folks that walk in put on a face than walk out and their religion is at the church. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/100 "2021-03-26T09:35:59Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > So you take Trump seriously or his preacher that chant and dance and some places even fall down? > > Not saying Trump does this when he goes to church but there are many places that do those dances and chants. Or some places that fall down or do other strange body movements. 1. Trump isn’t a churchgoer. 2. I don’t normally like You Tube videos as cites, but if you could link to one as an example of what you are talking about it sure would be helpful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336.md?page=6)