# Is there a deep state or cabal \[spelling corrected\] that is controlling the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336 "2021-03-21T02:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/101 "2021-03-26T09:47:11Z")
Well Kong Kong or Taiwan would not be a problem if China tried to take it over in the past. But all these years and now China is interested in Kong Kong or Taiwan. Not to say China and Japan playing tick tack with the military than one day the fighter planes or ships are going fire and start a war. Or China getting into sea disputes with the Philippines and India. And China building islands and building army bases on it. It clear China is not interested in Kong Kong or Taiwan they just want buffer zone and empire. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/102 "2021-03-26T10:11:09Z")
What does any of this have to do with a deep state or cabal controlling our government? ---
**Author:** ![Jillwood77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@Jillwood77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillwood77)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/103 "2021-03-26T11:04:16Z")
Well if China tried to do that in the 80s and 90s the US and even Europe would put sanctions may be even embargo on it like Iran or Cuba. But because businesses make money by things being built in China for dirt cheap and people would protest when the store shelves of many stores go empty the government will look the other way. And that the grandkids worry about China rising. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/104 "2021-03-26T11:11:09Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Well Kong Kong or Taiwan would not be a problem if China tried to take it over in the past. But all these years and now China is interested in Kong Kong or Taiwan. > > Not to say China and Japan playing tick tack with the military than one day the fighter planes or ships are going fire and start a war. Or China getting into sea disputes with the Philippines and India. > > And China building islands and building army bases on it. > > It clear China is not interested in Kong Kong or Taiwan they just want buffer zone and empire. China has been “interested” in Hong Kong and Taiwan for their entire existences. This is not a change in their position. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/105 "2021-03-26T13:09:19Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > It clear China is not interested in Kong Kong or Taiwan they just want buffer zone and empire. It’s clear that you have no knowledge of Chinese history. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/106 "2021-03-26T13:44:41Z")
Jillwood77, can’t you slow down a little and reread your posts before hitting “Reply” so you don’t make mistakes like writing “Kong Kong” instead of “Hong Kong”? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/107 "2021-03-26T14:39:30Z")
Don’t be so quick to criticize. I quite like his idea of having the “Vatican keeping every preacher on a lash”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/108 "2021-03-26T15:56:19Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Jillwood77, can’t you slow down a little and reread your posts before hitting “Reply” so you don’t make mistakes like writing “Kong Kong” instead of “Hong Kong”? Maybe the Chinese reallly like _Law and Order_. KONG KONG ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/109 "2021-03-26T15:58:05Z")
What gives the Deep State credence is that it, in a certain sense, _does_ exist - if going by the argument made earlier that “People just doing their jobs properly are considered the Deep State” if doing one’s job properly means foiling Trump. Bolton rightfully criticized Trump’s woeful behavior, and was labeled a Deep-Stater. Pence rightfully declared Biden the winner (he _couldn’t_ have made Trump president, as some fantasized) - and was labeled a Deep Stater. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/110 "2021-03-26T16:21:50Z")
But this is specious – alien reptilians exist if one defines “alien reptilians” as “Tom Hanks and his close relatives”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/111 "2021-03-26T16:33:22Z")
Exactly - if you define “Deep Stater” as “a person who doesn’t do whatever Trump wants all the time”, you’ll find a lot of “Deep Staters” but you won’t really have demonstrated the existence of a “cabal” or a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/112 "2021-03-26T16:35:33Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > if you define “Deep Stater” as “a person who doesn’t do whatever Trump wants all the time” Even simpler, if you define “Deep Stater” as “a person who doesn’t do whatever Trump wants all the time”, then your definition is _wrong._ ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/113 "2021-03-26T16:37:31Z")
How many legs does a dog have, if you count a tail as a leg? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/114 "2021-03-26T17:26:18Z")
Charles Krauthammer probably said it best: _“Is there actually a deep state? If you mean entrenched bureaucracy, then of course there is. If you mean a government-wide conspiracy, then the answer is almost certainly no.”_ ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/115 "2021-03-26T17:37:37Z")
A broader issue with the idea of the “deep state” or cabal secretly controlling the U.S. government is that it, like all CTs, depends on the enduring, loyal silence of **very large** numbers of people, which is, honestly, so highly improbable as to be effectively impossible. People blab. People brag, and want to impress others with their insider knowledge. People turn “state’s evidence.” People slip up, and say something they shouldn’t. And on, and on. The more people who know about a secret, the more points of failure that secret has. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/116 "2021-03-26T17:42:29Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Yes I was asking why the US government allowed monopolies in that thread and so called anti trust laws. To a large extent you have conservative jurist (and Saturday Night Massacre assassin) Robert Bork to blame for this. > **[How Robert Bork Fathered the New Gilded Age - ProMarket](https://www.promarket.org/2019/09/05/how-robert-bork-fathered-the-new-gilded-age/)** > > Much like in the first Gilded Age, antitrust enforcers today are hitting labor, not capital. This is thanks to Robert Bork’s radical and influential reinterpretation of antitrust law. In helping successfully rewrite antitrust, Bork left a legacy of... Basically he changed the interpretation of the laws to the view that being anti-competitive was only a problem if consumers were hurt. So long as people are happy getting their packages from Amazon, they can gobble up or crush any competition to their hearts content, while at the same time preventing their competitors from organizing opposition against them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/117 "2021-03-26T18:13:17Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Nope. The Illuminati were a Bavarian secret society of the 18th century that dissolved, or was phased out, respectively, mere decades after its formation. No satanism and blood drinking, just idealism for the enlightenment and secret opposition against the local contemporary absolutist system. Or so they _want_ you to believe… > [@DrFidelius](#): > > I’m gonna set up my own Illuminati, with blackjack and hookers. Forget the blackjack! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/118 "2021-03-26T21:04:47Z")
It’s hilariously ironic that the CTers can’t wait to spread their rumors all over the internet, said rumors always relying on thousands of people not divulging a huge secret. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2021, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/119 "2021-03-27T07:25:30Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Well if China tried to do that in the 80s and 90s the US and even Europe would put sanctions may be even embargo on it like Iran or Cuba. > > But because businesses make money by things being built in China for dirt cheap and people would protest when the store shelves of many stores go empty the government will look the other way. The difference now is not that shady politicians are in the pocket of China, it’s that basically everybody is. The Chinese economy is 40x as big as it was in 1980, and while the popular image, particularly in the US, is of China as a sweatshop-driven manufacturing center, the reality is that China is actually the biggest **buyer** for a whole range of consumer products from cars to beer. Plus of course they make massive foreign investments into the US and EU. So any sanctions against China are necessarily going to be somewhat toothless, unless China forces everyone’s hand with a bloody military invasion. If this seems unfair, bear in mind this is still far from the immunity that the United States enjoys. The US can broadly ignore international laws, because no-one can afford to sanction the US. ETA: sorry china isn’t the biggest buyer of beer, I got confused because I heard a stat that China buys the most Budweiser ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336/120 "2021-03-27T07:38:53Z")
> [@Jillwood77](#): > > Well Kong Kong or Taiwan would not be a problem if China tried to take it over in the past. But all these years and now China is interested in Kong Kong or Taiwan. Please read some history. Before the British took over Hong Kong, in the 19th century, it was part of China. Taiwan also - how do you think the government thrown out by the Communists went there? Go look at a map of Hong Kong. It isn’t buffering anything. But until recently there was a free flow of information there. And the islands have nothing to do with anything. Please try to get better educated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-deep-state-or-cabal-spelling-corrected-that-is-controlling-the-government/938336.md?page=7)