# Is there a Democratic candidate for POTUS I can support? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 20, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714 "2019-11-20T17:28:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/221 "2019-11-25T17:51:45Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > But that’s pretty much what Trump said while standing in front of NRA and GOA conventions. > > Then the moment something happened he started talking about all sorts of restrictions and got a bump stock ban via an illegal procedure. > > I’ve always said that a truly pro-gun Democrat could beat the brains out of a Republican in a national election. But what the Democratic party consider pro-gun is not what gun issue voters consider pro-gun. And “gun issue voters” are from all appearances no less resistant than anyone else to the seduction of hearing the words they want to hear, even when spoken by a proven liar and opportunist. (And at the same time many of them would _never_ believe the pro-gun Democrat even if she were hooked up to a polygraph while promising it…) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/222 "2019-11-25T18:13:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > … > When I hear open borders and free everything it sounds like socialism to me. I’m not a fan. I’m also not a fan with claiming to be following the constitution yet ignoring every ‘troubling’ aspect of it when convenient to do so. > … No one has suggested open borders seriously. And sure, “Free” college- in various iterations- has been suggested. In some states, Community colleges are basically free. I dont see how that makes anything worse. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/223 "2019-11-25T18:23:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > if you’ll notice, the OP was talking about voting third party as opposed to voting for Trump. > … Which means voting for trump, in effect. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/224 "2019-11-25T18:29:04Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I find the OP funny. As horrific as Trump is, the democratic candidate has to pass a microscopic personality/politics test, otherwise he’ll vote for Trump?! > > That’s like keeping Hitler and not voting for Winston Churchill because he smoked those stinky cigars. LOL I see this everywhere now: Meet the press especially. It’s almost like the media ecosphere is designed to troll liberals. MTP is just at sea trying to deal with this. They can’t stop the bad faith and can’t call it out except by passively nodding and moving on to the panel segment where a defense of sanity may be offered, in the heat of some bad faith crosstalk. The media has defined democracy as something that is being ratcheted away with each new event in the world, where liberals must be scared of offending their neighbors but no one else needs to. The reason: It’s reality TV at it’s best. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/225 "2019-11-25T18:32:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which means voting for trump, in effect. That’s ridiculous. An actual Trump supporter is likely to claim voting third party is, in effect, voting for the Dem nominee, but the fact of the matter is that voting third party takes nothing away from either Dems or Reps. If neither party nominates an acceptable candidate, and I could not vote third party or write in someone I like, I’d just stay home. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/226 "2019-11-25T18:41:27Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s ridiculous. An actual Trump supporter is likely to claim voting third party is, in effect, voting for the Dem nominee, but the fact of the matter is that voting third party takes nothing away from either Dems or Reps. If neither party nominates an acceptable candidate, and I could not vote third party or write in someone I like, I’d just stay home. No, I disagree, since the GOP hopes and prays for poor voter turnout. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/227 "2019-11-25T18:56:25Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s ridiculous. An actual Trump supporter is likely to claim voting third party is, in effect, voting for the Dem nominee, but the fact of the matter is that voting third party takes nothing away from either Dems or Reps. If neither party nominates an acceptable candidate, and I could not vote third party or write in someone I like, I’d just stay home. Okay, put it another way. You are refusing to do something good and necessary unless someone else jumps through hoops, and your conception of civic engagement is hopelessly naive. The republican party needs to go. If you think getting a candidate who fits your wishlist is more important than that… … Why? Why should we have to change to appeal to you so that you’ll act against the regime taking immigration advice from a neo-nazi? Everything I said earlier about the alternative? That’s still totally true even if you’re not a republican! I strongly dislike Joe Biden and think that he shouldnt be the president in any sane system, but if my options are Biden, Trump, or not voting (or voting third party, but I repeat myself), the only moral or rational option is Biden. Or maybe you think the status quo is fine? If so, yikes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/228 "2019-11-25T19:12:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And sure, “Free” college- in various iterations- has been suggested. In some states, Community colleges are basically free. I dont see how that makes anything worse. I wish it didn’t need pointing out, but there’s also an enormous difference between “free everything” and “publicly fund some aspect of our educational system.” The former is a bananas proposal. The latter is the same sort of proposal that was so controversial during the Gilded Age. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/229 "2019-11-25T19:16:57Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s ridiculous. An actual Trump supporter is likely to claim voting third party is, in effect, voting for the Dem nominee, but the fact of the matter is that voting third party takes nothing away from either Dems or Reps. If neither party nominates an acceptable candidate, and I could not vote third party or write in someone I like, I’d just stay home. Hands on the trolley, man. Hands on the trolley. Out of 1000 voters, there are 475 who like the flaming dumpster fire, and 525 who loathe him. Problem is, out of those 525, there are 100 who also hate the condescending server-wiper. If all 100 of those server-wiper-haters make a trolley decision, they’ll see it’s much worse to have a dumpster fire than to have a server wiper, and we’ll get the server-wiper in office, 525-475. If all 100 of those server-wiper-haters ignore their trolley decision, they’ll instead refuse to vote for a candidate they hate, and instead they’ll vote third party, and we’ll get the dumpster fire in office, 475-425. The analysis of who’s helped by a third party vote depends on who the voter thinks is worse of the two candidates with a chance. Third-party voters who would’ve voted for Trump over Clinton helped Clinton when they voted third-party, and the reverse is true. A third party vote helps your least-liked candidate exactly and mathematically 1/2 as much as a vote for that hated candidate would. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/230 "2019-11-25T19:16:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, I disagree, since the GOP hopes and prays for poor voter turnout. Quite true. There is a structural advantage for republicans if they can manage to get low turnout. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/231 "2019-11-25T19:21:08Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s ridiculous. An actual Trump supporter is likely to claim voting third party is, in effect, voting for the Dem nominee, but the fact of the matter is that voting third party takes nothing away from either Dems or Reps. If neither party nominates an acceptable candidate, and I could not vote third party or write in someone I like, I’d just stay home. Voting “other” is mathematically the same as not voting. It’s effectively the same as half a vote for Trump (and half for the Dem candidate) since you’re giving up the opportunity to vote against either candidate by choosing an option that will not win. If you really dislike Trump, and dislike the Dem candidate slightly less, the only real option is to vote Dem if you want your vote to mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/232 "2019-11-25T19:36:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which means voting for trump, in effect. Which is no more true an assertion than a Trump supporter saying that voting for a third party means voting for Sanders/Warren/AOC/Osama bin Laden, “in effect.” Now, I completely discourage people from voting third party because it’s a useless exercise, but the argument that non-voters favor one side and not the other is just incorrect. They are nothing but a missed opportunity for either side. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/233 "2019-11-25T19:50:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which is no more true an assertion than a Trump supporter saying that voting for a third party means voting for Sanders/Warren/AOC/Osama bin Laden, “in effect.” > > Now, I completely discourage people from voting third party because it’s a useless exercise, but the argument that non-voters favor one side and not the other is just incorrect. They are nothing but a missed opportunity for either side. Can you explain why Rs want low turnout elections? The ones you are talking about, “people on the fence”, may be a demo group that advantages dems and disadvantages Rs. Being able to know that is what facebook et al are all about. And they know a lot. Very specifically Jill Stein was the choice of a lot of on the fencers but also the choice of the russia propaganda machine. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/234 "2019-11-25T19:54:27Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … Why? Why should we have to change to appeal to you so that you’ll act against the regime taking immigration advice from a neo-nazi? Everything I said earlier about the alternative? That’s still totally true even if you’re not a republican! I strongly dislike Joe Biden and think that he shouldnt be the president in any sane system, but if my options are Biden, Trump, or not voting (or voting third party, but I repeat myself), the only moral or rational option is Biden. Why must you appeal to me? Pretty sure I’ve explained that several times now, but for the umpteenth time, you must appeal to me if you want my vote. It’s that simple. I have no duty to endorse or support an agenda I find unacceptable. Banning “assault weapons” and/or requiring gun registration are not acceptable to me. Those things are never going to be acceptable to me. Trump is equally unacceptable to me, for other reasons. There is no circumstance in which I’d vote for him. However, and I cannot emphasize this enough–the left is not entitled to my vote regardless of what they claim about the incumbent. If you want my vote, earn it. Or forfeit it. Your call. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/235 "2019-11-25T20:04:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which is no more true an assertion than a Trump supporter saying that voting for a third party means voting for Sanders/Warren/AOC/Osama bin Laden, “in effect.” The “compared to” is the key missing piece. When you vote third party, **compared to how you’d vote if you had to choose between the only candidates who stand a chance** , if in the latter situation you would’ve voted for Clinton, then your third-party vote is equivalent to half a vote for Trump. If in the latter situation you would’ve voted for Trump, then your third-party vote is equivalent to half a vote for Clinton. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Why must you appeal to me? Pretty sure I’ve explained that several times now, but for the umpteenth time, you must appeal to me if you want my vote. It’s that simple. > > I have no duty to endorse or support an agenda I find unacceptable. Banning “assault weapons” and/or requiring gun registration are not acceptable to me. Those things are never going to be acceptable to me. > > Trump is equally unacceptable to me, for other reasons. There is no circumstance in which I’d vote for him. > > However, and I cannot emphasize this enough–the left is not entitled to my vote regardless of what they claim about the incumbent. If you want my vote, earn it. Or forfeit it. Your call. My point is that your entire model is jacked. Nobody “earns” a vote. Voting isn’t about paying fair wages for service rendered. Nobody is “entitled” to your vote. Voting isn’t about giving something away. Voting is an action you take in order to push the world toward a better state. When I clean the cat box, I end up with a snootful of catshit stank. That litterbox isn’t entitled to being cleaned. It didn’t earn my labor. I do it, not for the sake of the catbox, but for my sake, and for the sake of my family. I want a better home. I encourage you, and everyone, to regard voting the same way. Don’t expect anyone to earn your vote; don’t imagine anyone feels entitled to it. Make your decision the one that makes the world better, even if doing so fucking stinks. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/236 "2019-11-25T20:08:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Why must you appeal to me? Pretty sure I’ve explained that several times now, but for the umpteenth time, you must appeal to me if you want my vote. It’s that simple. > > I have no duty to endorse or support an agenda I find unacceptable. Banning “assault weapons” and/or requiring gun registration are not acceptable to me. Those things are never going to be acceptable to me. > > Trump is equally unacceptable to me, for other reasons. There is no circumstance in which I’d vote for him. > > However, and I cannot emphasize this enough–the left is not entitled to my vote regardless of what they claim about the incumbent. If you want my vote, earn it. Or forfeit it. Your call. Things can’t be “equally unacceptable.” What that means is that you have reflective work to do, internally, things to parse and decide. But here you are asking other people to do it for you. “Equally unacceptable” is just a license for you to keep trying to have someone else make your decisions for you. Your position here, and your tone, are very “entitled.” “Earn my vote, and don’t touch my guns” ETA: Entitled has come up twice now. Good. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/237 "2019-11-25T20:08:34Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Can you explain why Rs want low turnout elections? > > The ones you are talking about, “people on the fence”, may be a demo group that advantages dems and disadvantages Rs. Sure, Republican voters vote more consistently. But from that axiom, one can’t then conclude that one voter’s non-vote therefore benefits the Republicans. “If A, then B; B, therefore A” remains a logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/238 "2019-11-25T20:10:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When you vote third party, **compared to how you’d vote if you had to choose between the only candidates who stand a chance** , if in the latter situation you would’ve voted for Clinton, then your third-party vote is equivalent to half a vote for Trump. > > If in the latter situation you would’ve voted for Trump, then your third-party vote is equivalent to half a vote for Clinton. I’m not familiar with all these new voting concepts – like ranked choice voting, single transferrable vote, Monte Carlo random vote distributor systems, Huawei Many Great Reliable Perfect Voting Machine System Concern, and so on – but I’m pretty sure in this country half votes don’t count for shit. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/239 "2019-11-25T20:18:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I encourage you, and everyone, to regard voting the same way. Don’t expect anyone to earn your vote; don’t imagine anyone feels entitled to it. Make your decision the one that makes the world better, even if doing so fucking stinks. You, and pretty much all of the other lefties in this thread, damn sure act like you’re entitled to my vote. I do not see voting the way you do, and I’m probably not going to see it that way. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714/240 "2019-11-25T20:21:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Sure, Republican voters vote more consistently. But from that axiom, one can’t then conclude that one voter’s non-vote therefore benefits the Republicans. > > “If A, then B; B, therefore A” remains a logical fallacy. If “on the fencers” are an advantage to dems then they will already have been the subject of propaganda to refrain from voting from the right. So the wheel is still in spin until you cast the vote. If you vote 3rd then that is perfectly in keeping with the plans of those you are voting to try and defeat. To exit from this system of propaganda you need to vote proactively, against the enemy. The “3 candidates choice” problem is just a screen for fascism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-democratic-candidate-for-potus-i-can-support/843714.md?page=13)