And “gun issue voters” are from all appearances no less resistant than anyone else to the seduction of hearing the words they want to hear, even when spoken by a proven liar and opportunist. (And at the same time many of them would never believe the pro-gun Democrat even if she were hooked up to a polygraph while promising it…)
No one has suggested open borders seriously. And sure, “Free” college- in various iterations- has been suggested. In some states, Community colleges are basically free. I dont see how that makes anything worse.
Which means voting for trump, in effect.
I see this everywhere now: Meet the press especially. It’s almost like the media ecosphere is designed to troll liberals.
MTP is just at sea trying to deal with this. They can’t stop the bad faith and can’t call it out except by passively nodding and moving on to the panel segment where a defense of sanity may be offered, in the heat of some bad faith crosstalk.
The media has defined democracy as something that is being ratcheted away with each new event in the world, where liberals must be scared of offending their neighbors but no one else needs to. The reason: It’s reality TV at it’s best.
That’s ridiculous. An actual Trump supporter is likely to claim voting third party is, in effect, voting for the Dem nominee, but the fact of the matter is that voting third party takes nothing away from either Dems or Reps. If neither party nominates an acceptable candidate, and I could not vote third party or write in someone I like, I’d just stay home.
No, I disagree, since the GOP hopes and prays for poor voter turnout.
Okay, put it another way. You are refusing to do something good and necessary unless someone else jumps through hoops, and your conception of civic engagement is hopelessly naive. The republican party needs to go. If you think getting a candidate who fits your wishlist is more important than that…
… Why? Why should we have to change to appeal to you so that you’ll act against the regime taking immigration advice from a neo-nazi? Everything I said earlier about the alternative? That’s still totally true even if you’re not a republican! I strongly dislike Joe Biden and think that he shouldnt be the president in any sane system, but if my options are Biden, Trump, or not voting (or voting third party, but I repeat myself), the only moral or rational option is Biden.
Or maybe you think the status quo is fine? If so, yikes.
I wish it didn’t need pointing out, but there’s also an enormous difference between “free everything” and “publicly fund some aspect of our educational system.” The former is a bananas proposal. The latter is the same sort of proposal that was so controversial during the Gilded Age.
Hands on the trolley, man. Hands on the trolley.
Out of 1000 voters, there are 475 who like the flaming dumpster fire, and 525 who loathe him.
Problem is, out of those 525, there are 100 who also hate the condescending server-wiper.
If all 100 of those server-wiper-haters make a trolley decision, they’ll see it’s much worse to have a dumpster fire than to have a server wiper, and we’ll get the server-wiper in office, 525-475.
If all 100 of those server-wiper-haters ignore their trolley decision, they’ll instead refuse to vote for a candidate they hate, and instead they’ll vote third party, and we’ll get the dumpster fire in office, 475-425.
The analysis of who’s helped by a third party vote depends on who the voter thinks is worse of the two candidates with a chance. Third-party voters who would’ve voted for Trump over Clinton helped Clinton when they voted third-party, and the reverse is true.
A third party vote helps your least-liked candidate exactly and mathematically 1/2 as much as a vote for that hated candidate would.
Quite true. There is a structural advantage for republicans if they can manage to get low turnout.
Voting “other” is mathematically the same as not voting. It’s effectively the same as half a vote for Trump (and half for the Dem candidate) since you’re giving up the opportunity to vote against either candidate by choosing an option that will not win. If you really dislike Trump, and dislike the Dem candidate slightly less, the only real option is to vote Dem if you want your vote to mean anything.
Which is no more true an assertion than a Trump supporter saying that voting for a third party means voting for Sanders/Warren/AOC/Osama bin Laden, “in effect.”
Now, I completely discourage people from voting third party because it’s a useless exercise, but the argument that non-voters favor one side and not the other is just incorrect. They are nothing but a missed opportunity for either side.
Can you explain why Rs want low turnout elections?
The ones you are talking about, “people on the fence”, may be a demo group that advantages dems and disadvantages Rs. Being able to know that is what facebook et al are all about. And they know a lot.
Very specifically Jill Stein was the choice of a lot of on the fencers but also the choice of the russia propaganda machine.
Why must you appeal to me? Pretty sure I’ve explained that several times now, but for the umpteenth time, you must appeal to me if you want my vote. It’s that simple.
I have no duty to endorse or support an agenda I find unacceptable. Banning “assault weapons” and/or requiring gun registration are not acceptable to me. Those things are never going to be acceptable to me.
Trump is equally unacceptable to me, for other reasons. There is no circumstance in which I’d vote for him.
However, and I cannot emphasize this enough–the left is not entitled to my vote regardless of what they claim about the incumbent. If you want my vote, earn it. Or forfeit it. Your call.
The “compared to” is the key missing piece.
When you vote third party, compared to how you’d vote if you had to choose between the only candidates who stand a chance, if in the latter situation you would’ve voted for Clinton, then your third-party vote is equivalent to half a vote for Trump.
If in the latter situation you would’ve voted for Trump, then your third-party vote is equivalent to half a vote for Clinton.
My point is that your entire model is jacked. Nobody “earns” a vote. Voting isn’t about paying fair wages for service rendered. Nobody is “entitled” to your vote. Voting isn’t about giving something away.
Voting is an action you take in order to push the world toward a better state.
When I clean the cat box, I end up with a snootful of catshit stank. That litterbox isn’t entitled to being cleaned. It didn’t earn my labor. I do it, not for the sake of the catbox, but for my sake, and for the sake of my family. I want a better home.
I encourage you, and everyone, to regard voting the same way. Don’t expect anyone to earn your vote; don’t imagine anyone feels entitled to it. Make your decision the one that makes the world better, even if doing so fucking stinks.
Things can’t be “equally unacceptable.” What that means is that you have reflective work to do, internally, things to parse and decide. But here you are asking other people to do it for you. “Equally unacceptable” is just a license for you to keep trying to have someone else make your decisions for you. Your position here, and your tone, are very “entitled.” “Earn my vote, and don’t touch my guns”
ETA: Entitled has come up twice now. Good.
Sure, Republican voters vote more consistently. But from that axiom, one can’t then conclude that one voter’s non-vote therefore benefits the Republicans.
“If A, then B; B, therefore A” remains a logical fallacy.
I’m not familiar with all these new voting concepts – like ranked choice voting, single transferrable vote, Monte Carlo random vote distributor systems, Huawei Many Great Reliable Perfect Voting Machine System Concern, and so on – but I’m pretty sure in this country half votes don’t count for shit.
You, and pretty much all of the other lefties in this thread, damn sure act like you’re entitled to my vote. I do not see voting the way you do, and I’m probably not going to see it that way.
If “on the fencers” are an advantage to dems then they will already have been the subject of propaganda to refrain from voting from the right. So the wheel is still in spin until you cast the vote. If you vote 3rd then that is perfectly in keeping with the plans of those you are voting to try and defeat. To exit from this system of propaganda you need to vote proactively, against the enemy. The “3 candidates choice” problem is just a screen for fascism.