# Is there a difference between 'informed stereotypes' and prejudice judgements? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119 "2016-12-07T16:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/101 "2016-12-09T20:21:53Z")
Claiming stereotypes are never or always based in truth, the thread has more comments tending to the former, are both extreme. ‘Never’ has been supported by voicing some particularly ugly, or frivolous, stereotypes in extreme terms, but that only proves anything if ‘stereotype’ is taken to mean ‘highly exaggerated or false’. Which is sometimes the connotation of the word. And the formal definition is halfway there by one quick source: “a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.” Oversimplified, doesn’t mean false but doesn’t exactly mean true either, allows the possibility of a grain of truth at least. However if we drop the word ‘stereotype’ and ask instead whether any, including potentially unflattering’ generalizations about groups are true: some are. Black academic underachievement in the US, by same measures we find US achievement on the whole mediocre by international standards, is real. The causes and solutions if any are infinitely debatable, the gap itself isn’t, though not constant either. Likewise only a pretty extreme view says the apparently much higher black crime rate is just a measurement artifact, or ‘over arresting’ etc. rather than a real difference. Causes/solutions? again infinitely debatable, gap again not constant (weakening an argument that it’s absolutely inherent, but who is arguing that? nobody). The ‘stereotypes are false’ side seems to have kind of conceded ground on this as thread went along. Saying stereotypes by their demoralizing effects help cause achievement gaps (maybe), is admitting some truth to uncomfortable and sensitive generalizations some might call a ‘stereotype’. Again if you limit ‘stereotype’ to something oversimplified or exaggerated, then you’ve ‘won’ the argument with your definition, and made ‘informed stereotype’ a contradiction in terms. But ‘informed unflattering generalization’ can’t be defined out of existence as easily. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/102 "2016-12-09T20:53:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Relying on stereotypes to characterize individuals is shoddy-thinking, but there is a gradient of “badness”. > > If I’m walking on a street and a guy dressed in raggedy clothing approaches me, I’ll probably tense up a little. But I’d probably not tense up if the guy is dressed in a three-piece business suit. > > I’m not proud of these reactions, but I’m not ashamed of them either. > > I don’t find stereotypes to be all that useful when dealing with individuals. I may assume the white male Millennial I’m speaking with is still living with his parents and codes in his spare time–and perhaps this does describe a disproportionate number of folks in this demographic. But it is likely inaccurate for any particular individual, so why not withhold judgment until more information is provided? > > I’m actually struggling to imagine a case where a stereotype (“Jews are greedy and stingy”, “Women are sensitive”, “Asians are math geeks”, “Blacks are prone to criminality” etc.) WOULD be helpful. Certain generalizations, yes. For instance, if you’re a teacher who works at a school in a poor neighborhood, it makes sense to assume that any random kid who walks into your classroom is probably going to be poor. But that’s not stereotyping. We all fall victim to negative stereotyping. I’ve done it, you’ve done it, we’ve all done it. We do it because these little mental shortcuts save us time and we think the error rate is low enough that the cost of being wrong is more than made up for by the time and effort saved to prove we are right. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/103 "2016-12-09T20:56:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You shouldn’t be “figuring” this because it is a logical fallacy to appeal to the bandwagon. > > People have always believed in myths and lies. People have always believed in aliens, ghosts, demons, dieties, and crazy conspiracies. All that means is that there is something about these ideas that is especially seductive. > > The big dumb brute is an appealing belief. Who is better able to withstand dirty, hard labor? The big tall guy. So let’s make him do all the heavy chores. And we’ll justify it by telling him he’s too dumb to work in an office. Eventually we’ll all start believing it. > > Almost all stereotypes are self-serving like this. “Blacks are childlike subhumans who lack discipline and intelligence” easily translates into “They would make great slaves and servants.” “Women are emotional creatures who are given to neuroses” easily translates into “Better keep them in the home so they’ll stay barefoot and pregnant so the men can rule everything.” > > The fact that stereotypes are used to benefit the stereotyper is what keeps them entrenched. A white guy is able to get a little ego boost at the thought that blacks are more dangerous, which is why that belief is so prevalent in our society. Meanwhile, another stereotype–white guys are heartless bastards–doesn’t get as much traction (despite the evidence that seems to support it). Not because there isn’t a “grain of truth” there (cuz perhaps there is, right?), but because it doesn’t make the majority of Americans feel warm and tingly–seeing as how it personally affects them. > > I’m guessing the “big dumb brute” stereotype is entrenched because the majority of people aren’t big brutes. It’s always fun to poke fun at the “other” guy, especially if he has traits (strength and height) that are otherwise admired. Being a big strong guy is a lot like being a really attractive woman. The world does not pressure you to be very good at anything else. I know some very smart attractive women but they have trouble being taken seriously and they can often skate by on their looks. If they weren’t so driven, they’d be ivy league trophy wives. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/104 "2016-12-09T21:26:16Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Who passes on cultural expectations to black children? Their parents who are black, their peers who are black, their media role models who are black, and their teachers who are mostly black or if white highly unlikely to be racist. The idea that cultural expectations of white people play a huge role in how black youths feel about themselves feels odd. I doubt it’s self-esteem or expectations from outside their own communities at all. Rather I think there are some internalized expectations and stereotypes in play; for example, if your parents believe that black adolescents can’t make it out of the ghetto and to college, how likely is it that their kid is going to break that expectation? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/105 "2016-12-09T21:29:51Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Claiming stereotypes are never or always based in truth, the thread has more comments tending to the former, are both extreme. > > ‘Never’ has been supported by voicing some particularly ugly, or frivolous, stereotypes in extreme terms, but that only proves anything if ‘stereotype’ is taken to mean ‘highly exaggerated or false’. Which is sometimes the connotation of the word. And the formal definition is halfway there by one quick source: > “a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.” > Oversimplified, doesn’t mean false but doesn’t exactly mean true either, allows the possibility of a grain of truth at least. > > However if we drop the word ‘stereotype’ and ask instead whether any, including potentially unflattering’ generalizations about groups are true: some are. Black academic underachievement in the US, by same measures we find US achievement on the whole mediocre by international standards, is real. The causes and solutions if any are infinitely debatable, the gap itself isn’t, though not constant either. Likewise only a pretty extreme view says the apparently much higher black crime rate is just a measurement artifact, or ‘over arresting’ etc. rather than a real difference. Causes/solutions? again infinitely debatable, gap again not constant (weakening an argument that it’s absolutely inherent, but who is arguing that? nobody). > > The ‘stereotypes are false’ side seems to have kind of conceded ground on this as thread went along. Saying stereotypes by their demoralizing effects help cause achievement gaps (maybe), is admitting some truth to uncomfortable and sensitive generalizations some might call a ‘stereotype’. Again if you limit ‘stereotype’ to something oversimplified or exaggerated, then you’ve ‘won’ the argument with your definition, and made ‘informed stereotype’ a contradiction in terms. But ‘informed unflattering generalization’ can’t be defined out of existence as easily. Can you tell me what good is done when you stereotype? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/106 "2016-12-10T00:14:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not sure if that self esteem study says that exactly: > [The Unfair Self-Esteem Trap Faced by Minority Students | Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/are-we-born-racist/201205/the-unfair-self-esteem-trap-faced-minority-students) > > In any case, there are clear differences in self-esteem and likely other characteristics of children based on race. If we consider that (as has been true in pretty much all of human history) society might treat people of different race differently, then it’s possible that this differing treatment has some affect on children. Kids who think that basketball is their best chance at success are likely to expend more effort on basketball than kids who think that a professional career like medicine or engineering is their best chance. It seems at least plausible that different messages might be sent out to different kids, based on more than just differences in parenting, and this may lead to different outcomes. You honestly believe that Eskimos and Jamaicans are going to have the same outcome in elite sprinting if each group had equivalent praise? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/107 "2016-12-10T01:21:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You honestly believe that Eskimos and Jamaicans are going to have the same outcome in elite sprinting if each group had equivalent praise? I didn’t say that at all. In any case, the stereotypes I’m most interested in are the ones that have historically been used to justify brutality and oppression – and those aren’t about sprinting. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/108 "2016-12-12T20:52:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Are individual people who get in due to affirmative action aware that this is why they were accepted? I would be surprised if this is correct. Maybe not AA strictly, but I do know that the scholarship requirements are well published, and I’d also think that if you are a minority student trying to get into an institution, and you don’t have the requisite performance, yet get in anyway, you’ll probably put two and two together and think AA. ---
**Author:** ![aux203](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/77aa72/32.png) [@aux203](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aux203)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/109 "2016-12-12T22:02:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Maybe not AA strictly, but I do know that the scholarship requirements are well published, and I’d also think that if you are a minority student trying to get into an institution, and you don’t have the requisite performance, yet get in anyway, you’ll probably put two and two together and think AA. At highly competitive institutions, my experience is that students are acutely aware of AA and it’s effects. In medical school for example the gap in the achievement between the Asian and Black students is absolutely enormous. Since medical training relies very heavily on standardized tests to determine career placement, these effects become more obvious as time goes on, not less. It leads to an odd ecosystem where all of the weakest students are URM and the strongest tend to be Asian and White. This does not go unnoticed and in turn strengthens peoples’ stereotypes. When I got to review applications for residency and medical school, I was frankly shocked at the disparities. It was much, much bigger than I expected. But as others pointed out, it made some sense. Even a small difference in the mean becomes huge as you push out on the bell curve even assuming similar distributions. Large to the point I had a hard time reconciling it and still do. Just an interesting story. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/110 "2016-12-12T22:19:22Z")
> [@aux203](#): > > At highly competitive institutions, my experience is that students are acutely aware of AA and it’s effects. I was thinking more of the situation I was in during college, where all the students in a particular dorm were freshman honors students, which essentially meant that we were all scholarship holders of a select set of scholarships- either the university’s regular old merit-based scholarships, or their ethnic oriented counterparts. In practice the students were no more or less accomplished if they were black or hispanic- we were still getting the academic cream of the crop. But where it got fucked up was with the GPA requirements to keep the scholarship. The color-blind scholarships required a 3.0 cumulative GPA to keep your scholarship, while the minority ones only required a 2.5. On top of that, the minority scholarships were for 12,000 (I think) vs. 10,000 or 8000 for the color-blind (i.e. white) scholarships. Most of the minority students were somewhat insulted by this, as it implied that they weren’t capable or expected to maintain the same GPA as white students. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/111 "2016-12-13T15:21:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I doubt it’s self-esteem or expectations from outside their own communities at all. Rather I think there are some internalized expectations and stereotypes in play; for example, if your parents believe that black adolescents can’t make it out of the ghetto and to college, how likely is it that their kid is going to break that expectation? That no longer becomes stereotypes and becomes a culture. It shows that stereotypes are based on reality if a culture accepts those stereotypes about itself. What people who blame society for brainwashing young black kids fail to realize is that whites have relatively little influence on black culture. Black culture celebrates the differences and what outsiders see as negative stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/112 "2016-12-13T15:26:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not sure if that self esteem study says that exactly: > [The Unfair Self-Esteem Trap Faced by Minority Students | Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/are-we-born-racist/201205/the-unfair-self-esteem-trap-faced-minority-students) > > In any case, there are clear differences in self-esteem and likely other characteristics of children based on race. If we consider that (as has been true in pretty much all of human history) society might treat people of different race differently, then it’s possible that this differing treatment has some affect on children. Kids who think that basketball is their best chance at success are likely to expend more effort on basketball than kids who think that a professional career like medicine or engineering is their best chance. It seems at least plausible that different messages might be sent out to different kids, based on more than just differences in parenting, and this may lead to different outcomes. That is not the study I linked to. The study I linked to was a survey of self esteem of teenagers. It found that seniors in high school had the highest self esteem which is not to be expected if the negative feedback inherent in test taking is eroding self esteem. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/113 "2016-12-13T17:11:01Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > However, in the real world telling someone who makes all As that they are dumb is not going to do anything to convince them, nor is telling someone who makes Fs that they are smart. Doing it once, no, but doing it enough times works in both directions. When we ran into my old grades a few years ago, I was suprised to see that they had been high enough to enter any college in the country; a lifetime of being yelled at over my grades had convinced me that they were real bad. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/114 "2016-12-14T19:34:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Can you tell me what good is done when you stereotype? I strongly guess the course of the debate over that one question answer to my several paragraphs would get bogged down in defining ‘stereotype’, like I said. What good is done by holding incorrect, exaggerated or grossly oversimplified ideas about a type of person or thing? None. What good is facing the facts of uncomfortable, sensitive but accurate unflattering generalizations about a type of person or thing if they are facts? That’s accepting reality, and the alternative can be damaging, as seen all the time now in US society and politics, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119/115 "2016-12-14T21:38:22Z")
Hawaii’s kind a wierd bird, because there’s so many ethnic groups with so many stereotypes. It’s almost an equal-opportunity phenomenon. Interestingly, I noticed many of the ethnic jokes have parallels among mainland US groups. Racist? You betcha. Fodder of every entertainer? You betcha. Some beloved comedians, like Frank DeLima have made a career out it, as most of it is pretty light-hearted. Chinese: similar to Jewish jokes, protrayed as greedy and cheap. For instance, “Pake” (Pah-kay) is an interchangable term for cheap and/and or Chinese. Filipino: similar to Mexican jokes, portrayed with large families, doing menial service jobs (like hotels), odd food (bark bark!), illegal immigration suspicions. Vietnamese and other groups may fall in here, too. Pacific Islanders, like Samoans and Hawaiians: similar to black jokes, focusing on violent criminality and laziness. These are probably the most offensive and aren’t shared as much. Other groups have more mild stereotypes, unlike the groups above. Japanese get the nerdy and busybody jokes. White folks (haoles) get the uptight and “fresh off the boat” jokes: “How do you pronounce Likelike Highway?”. And then there’s perhaps the largest single category. Remember every single Polack joke you’ve heard? Replace with the word “Portagee” for Portuguese. Frank DeLima, mentioned above, is unashamedly Portuguese and is the font from which these jokes flow. I’m not sure which I’d classify as myths, and some of these stereotypes have kernals of truth. The hotel service industry is indeed dominated by Filipinas. The crime rate of Pacific Islanders are higher than other groups. And most FOB haoles will call it “Like-like” not “Lee-kay-lee-kay” Highway. It’s not like they’re saying “All Koreans are made of green cheese.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-a-difference-between-informed-stereotypes-and-prejudice-judgements/774119.md?page=5)